Are we doing OK or underachieving?

[Smurph]

And the lower points total? The 4 less goals?

Like I said; objectively worse.

Stats can be used to tell any story you like.

I'm basing my opinion on what unfolds in front me on the pitch. Whilst performances have been hit and miss, it's still a lot better than anything served up by Williams and the fella before him.

 

[lidojack]

Didn't say I didn't want us to improve.

I'm just not stamping my feet about it because I want it yesterday.

But we have gotten worse from Sheehan's tenure last season - despite having the second highest net spend in the league.

And the underlying numbers say we should be in an even more precarious position.

 

[Manselton Jack]

This message board & the indy version aren't a true representation of our fanbase really, I don't know what the age demographic on here is but I suspect we're mostly from the older end & remember the days of 4,000 crowds at the Vetch.!!
Social media users are likely to be younger & shout louder to our owners i suspect.
With the current owners increasing the international profile of the club & the amount of summer investment they put in I can't see any way they'll be content with a dull mid-table team.

 

[lidojack]

Stats can be used to tell any story you like.

I'm basing my opinion on what unfolds in front me on the pitch. Whilst performances have been hit and miss, it's still a lot better than anything served up by Williams and the fella before him.

Right, well if we are going to ignore stats such as "goals scored" and the ever controversial "points won" I don't think this is worth a discussion to be honest.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

But we have gotten worse from Sheehan's tenure last season - despite having the second highest net spend in the league.

And the underlying numbers say we should be in an even more precarious position.

You see this is exactly what is wrong with football today. Pseudo science.

"Net spend" - yeah well after years of decay and underinvestment in the team, we bloody needed to do it just to stand still. Context, see.

"Underlying numbers" - a make believe world where we are 24th on xG or whatever, if my auntie had balls, etc. But the reality is we're 16th.

 

[Smurph]

Right, well if we are going to ignore stats such as "goals scored" and the ever controversial "points won" I don't think this is worth a discussion to be honest.

Like I said we can all use stats to twist whatever narrative we want. We're 5 points shy of the playoffs whilst not playing well.

 

[cmajack]

Ok, fair enough. There's always grey I suppose.

I trust you were at the head of the queue complaining when Steve Cooper twice got us to the playoffs (Inc one final) playing some of the ugliest, shot-shy football we've seen in the last 20 years then?

It certainly wasn't pretty, neither was Hollins reign when we won the title , but it does make it more bearable if you are at the top end of the table. Cooper play off final was a disgrace in all honesty. Perhaps he is trying to emulate George Graham (currently without the results) who made a career out of tedious, boring 1-0 wins.

 

[sit_down_jack]

Comparisons with Williams should be moot because our expectations should have been elevated.

Sheehan finished last season gaining 1.9ppg, lost 3 players from the first team squad and spent nearly £15m.
When you compare then player we've lost/gained (Darling/Burgess, O'Brien/Galbraith etc.) you can't say we've lost quality so why are we now down to 1.3ppg? Why are we rock bottom of the division in xg, big chances and touches in the opposition box despite having the second highest net spend in the league?

It's not as if we are concrete defensively either as we are middling for most stats but make the 5th most saves per game.

With the money spent and the people investing in the club we likely have more eyes on us now than we have since we were in the Premier League, we should be taking advantage of that and not settling for mediocrity.

This is crucial context to our season and I think reveals that O’Brien was holding a lot more together last season than we realised.

 

[lidojack]

You see this is exactly what is wrong with football today. Pseudo science.

"Net spend" - yeah well after years of decay and underinvestment in the team, we bloody needed to do it just to stand still. Context, see.

"Underlying numbers" - a make believe world where we are 24th on xG or whatever, if my auntie had balls, etc. But the reality is we're 16th.

Yes but Sheehan got more out of the squad before we spent £15m.

Also, teams like Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford and Crystal Palace are praised to the high heavens for their data driven approaches.

The best teams and coaches in the world are mining statistics to get marginal gains on the opposition.

If you think we shouldn't be using them then I suggest you move with the times.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

It certainly wasn't pretty, neither was Hollins reign when we won the title , but it does make it more bearable if you are at the top end of the table.

And there we have it.

It doesn't make it more bearable, but some people will happily turn a blind eye to it if it wins more games. That's the long and the short of it. Cakeism.

 

[sit_down_jack]

We are, but what we're seeing is a clear divide in the fan base emerging, where you have some people like myself (and I suspect yourself, Dr Winston, Smurph and more than a handful of others are in this bracket) where that's just perfectly acceptable. Because we have lived and breathed the truly shit times, the shittest of the shit, and in the grand scheme of things being a middling second tier club is categorically not shit.

On the other side, you have fans whose only reference point is the relative success of the last 20-odd years - promotions, PL football, League Cup and FL Trophy wins, play off finals, etc. So being a bland, ok team in the second tier is just not exciting enough and we need to be up there challenging.

At risk of sounding condescending, those in the lower bracket will learn the hard way if they keep trying to destabilise the club by demanding we get rid of coaches every 5 minutes because we're not playing like Brazil 1970.

I agree with all of this bar the last paragraph. I think it’s definitely the case that fans who have been around longer will compare the present to the truly awful days and so find it difficult to condemn it. I get that, it makes total sense. For the record, I fall into that lower bracket, so I accept that my expectations of us are a little different.

The big difference now is, that we have owners who are seemingly ambitious and so why wouldn’t the fans share in that ambition?

There is also a huge difference between wanting to be a functional football side that creates chances, that can compete to win games and wanting to be 70s Brazil. Whichever way you slice it we are one of the least threatening teams in the league, it’s definitely not unreasonable for fans to want better than that.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

If you think we shouldn't be using them then I suggest you move with the times.

I don't object to the use of them, what I reject is the willingness of people to dump all other indicators of performance such as the eye test, in order to worship at the altar of the laptop brigade.

 

[Smurph]

We are a pretty average team in a league of pretty average teams. Replacing the manager isn't going to alter that fact.

 

[FearOfAJackPlanet]

This is crucial context to our season and I think reveals that O’Brien was holding a lot more together last season than we realised.

I often wonder how vital LOB was to our late season revival last time out. It should be pointed out that LOB was here under Williams as well and nothing changed, so the uptick in form started with Sheehan and not LOB. Then again, maybe LOB’s style just suited Sheehan more and you’re still left with it being a lot more about LOB than Sheehan as evidenced by our efforts this season where Sheehan remained and LOB is absent.

No doubt it’s far more nuanced and multifactored than that, but I sure wish we’d pushed the boat out to get LOB in the summer.

 

[Copamundial]

We should be doing a lot better, this league is cack this year and we shouldn’t playing down the quality of our squad it’s as good as any in this league in my opinion.
Tactics have been questionable to say the least but the last two games have seen a huge improvement in performances , let’s hope Sheehan continues with yesterday’s formation because we battered a side who haven’t lost at home since the War.