More than one way of playing.

[Vetchonian]

I am really pleased to see Duff has turned it around. I've always hated the 3 at the back and when Duff set us up in the 3-5-2 at the start of the season it didn't really look like we had any clue what we were trying to do and was worrying to see how many 'aimless' balls into the channel we were playing. It also seemed as if out of position we pressed less and allowed teams to pump balls into the box as it looked like Duff had instructed a flat back 5 and just defend for your life in the box instead of stopping at source. Was so frustrating watching our full backs continue to jockey the opposition back instead of counter press them.

My only concern is if Wood and to an extent Pederson hadn't got injured would he have changed style to the more conventional 4-3-3? We will never know really but that's my only 'worry' is that his hand was forced with injuries and so he changed shape as opposed to him actually recognising the style and formation needed to change. That being said since we've changed he hasn't left the hand brake up by playing two number 4's in Grimes and Fulton but instead allowing Patino and Pato to be more creative higher up the pitch. He deserves credit and I'm glad he's getting a tune out of the players. You could see Saturday Grimes staying a little higher and getting the ball on the half turn instead of dropping too deep to needlessly bounce the ball 10 times without us getting out our own half. Duff's certainly getting them working, lets hope this good run can continue.

To be fair the change to a 4 came before the injuries we started this new formation against Sheffield Wednesday...so it seems as though it was a deliberate action.
Interestingly we switched to a back 5 late in the game when we were 3 up as if to protect the clean sheet

 

[cadleigh]

This Grimes rumour is just a fairy-story peddled by posters who decided Duff was no good far too early and are now desparately back-peddling in panic. You watch how quickly most of them will deny ever holding such opinions if he does turn out to be any good.

As to the early games being an attempt at hoofball, that's nonsense. If you've ever read Catch 22 you'll know Orr's strategy - keep ditching the plane until you get it right. The occasional long ball (sometimes an aerial one) will be a feature of our game as long as Duff is the manager, along with short passing. I lost count of the number of times under Martin I watched us try to short-pass our way into the opposition's box and found no way through. I was desparate for us to try a different tactic (including 30-yard efforts), only for Martin to slate any players who dared to try.

Thank God we've now got a manager who understands that there is more than one way of playing.

 

[magicdaps10]

To be fair the change to a 4 came before the injuries we started this new formation against Sheffield Wednesday...so it seems as though it was a deliberate action.
Interestingly we switched to a back 5 late in the game when we were 3 up as if to protect the clean sheet

Not true, we played 4 at the back firstly against QPR. When we started the games against QPR and Sheff Wed, we had no injuries to any of our central defenders.
The change was made before injuries to Pedersen and Wood.

Going to a 3 when we are more than 2 goals up is a good idea.

 

[Vetchonian]

Not true, we played 4 at the back firstly against QPR. When we started the games against QPR and Sheff Wed, we had no injuries to any of our central defenders.
The change was made before injuries to Pedersen and Wood.

Going to a 3 when we are more than 2 goals up is a good idea.

which is what I said....I was responding to a post alluding toothed fact the change was due to injuries but we played 4 at the back v Wednesday before Wood was injured....I wasn't at QPR but saw us line up with a back four at the Sheffield game

 

[Itchysphincter]

This Grimes rumour is just a fairy-story peddled by posters who decided Duff was no good far too early and are now desparately back-peddling in panic. You watch how quickly most of them will deny ever holding such opinions if he does turn out to be any good.

As to the early games being an attempt at hoofball, that's nonsense. If you've ever read Catch 22 you'll know Orr's strategy - keep ditching the plane until you get it right. The occasional long ball (sometimes an aerial one) will be a feature of our game as long as Duff is the manager, along with short passing. I lost count of the number of times under Martin I watched us try to short-pass our way into the opposition's box and found no way through. I was desparate for us to try a different tactic (including 30-yard efforts), only for Martin to slate any players who dared to try.

Thank God we've now got a manager who understands that there is more than one way of playing.

It absolutely was hoofball, no point trying to pretend that they were attempts at long passing, as we’ve seen the last few was games. It was aimless and hopeless and pretty obvious to me that the players for whatever reason hadn’t adapted to what Duff was asking them to do, probably due in part to Nathan Wood not having a forward ball in him and playing us deeper and deeper in to a panic out ball.

 

[Dr. Winston]

It absolutely was hoofball, no point trying to pretend that they were attempts at long passing, as we’ve seen the last few was games. It was aimless and hopeless and pretty obvious to me that the players for whatever reason hadn’t adapted to what Duff was asking them to do, probably due in part to Nathan Wood not having a forward ball in him and playing us deeper and deeper in to a panic out ball.

This I think is closest to the truth, if a little harsh on Wood who looks quite capable of carrying the ball forward, if not passing it.

Seemed obvious to me that our biggest problem early doors was the failure of the midfield to adjust. Partly because the three man defence was wobbly enough to give even the most ambitious midfield reason to maybe think twice about pushing forward, and partly because Matt Grimes and Jay Fulton have rarely been anyone's idea of ambitious midfielders.

We had a chasm in the middle of the park and often the only option was to boot the ball over it.

Swapping to a four has given us more of a base to build from, and Grimes the confidence to change the habits of the last four years and maybe look forward more often than back.

As a unit we've been a lot more cohesive in the last several weeks than we were in the first few.

 

[magicdaps10]

which is what I said....I was responding to a post alluding toothed fact the change was due to injuries but we played 4 at the back v Wednesday before Wood was injured....I wasn't at QPR but saw us line up with a back four at the Sheffield game

Just pointing out that the 4 was started against QPR and just highlighted the injuries came from the Sheff Wed game onwards.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

It absolutely was hoofball, no point trying to pretend that they were attempts at long passing, as we’ve seen the last few was games. It was aimless and hopeless and pretty obvious to me that the players for whatever reason hadn’t adapted to what Duff was asking them to do, probably due in part to Nathan Wood not having a forward ball in him and playing us deeper and deeper in to a panic out ball.

This, 100% .

It's been great to see the improvement in recent games, and let's hope it's just the start of what we can expect to see the rest of the season. But anyone trying to deny the first 7 matches weren't hopeless, shapeless hoofball sh1te is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The growing clamour to forget preseason and the first 7 weeks of the season and pretend it didn't happen just because we won 4 games in 2 weeks is just weird.

Once again it's that binary thinking coming to the fore.

Hate Martin? Then you must always hate Martin

Hate Duff? Then you must always hate Duff

Like the last fortnight? Then you must pretend the previous 7 weeks didn't happen.

Weird.

 

[cadleigh]

The summer transfer window closed on 1 September. We played two games between then and our turn-around game at QPR. Two games, not seven.

The previous competitive matches were 1-1 draws against Birmingham (currently in the play-offs) and Coventry (one place below us at the moment), narrow losses to Preston (in third place) and West Brom (currently one place above us), a thumping 3-0 win cup win against a weak lower league team and a narrow defeat to Premier League opposition. All with a makeshift squad full of players who were on their way out and others who were having to play out of position. I'm not going to claim it was great football but to suggest that we had seven games plus a pre-season of hoofball and then a sudden transformation is just nonsense. We've been on a journey under Duff. It took him time to get the players he needed together, and as Dr Winston rightly said, it took him time to get the midfield to play ball (literally). But anyone with half a footballing brain can see that where we are now is where he was trying to get us to from the start.

Here's the highlights from the Oxford friendly, which I came away from thinking 'well that wasn't great but it was a hell of a lot more enjoyable than anything I saw under the previous manager'. I know highlights are just that, but our play here doesn't look like hoofball to me, it looks like the precursor of what we are seeing today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reqyc3ZuwrE

“In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.” Harry Lime

"In Swansea for 11 games under Michael Duff our possession stats have suffered but we have scored 12 goals in 5 games and produced Jamal Lowe, Josh Key and Carl Rushworth. Under Russell Martin we had two seasons under a manager with a big grin and free hand in the recruitment market and what did that produce? Two mid table finishes and Andy Fisher." Cadleigh

 

[Dr. Winston]

I'm not sure I entirely agree that it was an inevitability that we'd end up where we are, but to me there have always been hints of where Duff wanted us to go in the way the team played, even when we were terrible. I can remember at least one passage of intricate final third play in the Derby that left them standing like statues when we played around them. It's just a shame about the rest of the game.

MD has had to compromise in his preferred formation because three at the back is a terrible way to defend, but equally players like Grimes have been forced out of the comfort zones they inhabited under Martin and have had to learn how to play a new way. To their immense benefit if recent performances are any guide. The "hoofball" as described was obviously a result of the time taken for them to do that rather than a deliberate tactical choice.

 

[Dr. Winston]

This is one example (there are plenty of others) of what I mean.

The quick counterattacks. The use of the lofted pass from a defender to a man in space out wide. The interplay in the final third. There is an obvious style that runs through teams coached by Duff and it's extremely different to the one that the players have spent most of the last two years stuck in. Much of the last four in reality because Cooper wasn't really a fan of using pace and width either.

It was inevitable that it would take some time for the players to adjust to it, and indeed for the manager to adjust to the players, but we were pretty poor to begin with. The important thing now is to maintain the improvement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7qS1eCkWdw

 

[monmouth]

“In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.” Harry Lime

"In Swansea for 11 games under Michael Duff our possession stats have suffered but we have scored 12 goals in 5 games and produced Jamal Lowe, Josh Key and Carl Rushworth. Under Russell Martin we had two seasons under a manager with a big grin and free hand in the recruitment market and what did that produce? Two mid table finishes and Andy Fisher." Cadleigh

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