New self-ID gender laws in Scotland

[Neath_Jack]

I believe Scotland will be the 9th country in Europe to bring in similar systems to changing your gender? It would be interesting to hear about the problems that have resulted in those countries, plus it would give those upset about this a better basis to argue from.

Indeed, if people read the actual article that was linked instead of just the headline, it may have prompted them to go and do some proper research on it, rather than start howling. Far easier to start screaming though.

 

[MrSwerve]

I read your first line and stopped. If you're going to make stupid accusations the same as the other one did, post up where i suggested that you ae racist or f**k off. It's that simple. That is a perfect example of a gammon, screaming that they've been called a racist when they haven't. So unless you can show me where i called you or the other chap a racist (which you 100% won't be able to), it's a goodbye from me.

"I'm sure you have had plenty of issues with Trans people, similar to people who have certain issues with other races who happen to have friends or family members who are black."

Why say that it is 'similar to people who have certain issues with other races'? What are you hinting at there? There's absolutely no reason to bring race in to this. Or are you just not going to answer, swear and tell me to f**k off. You come across as quite an aggressive person, on here at least.

All I wanted was some form of debate.

 

[Neath_Jack]

"I'm sure you have had plenty of issues with Trans people, similar to people who have certain issues with other races who happen to have friends or family members who are black."

Why say that it is 'similar to people who have certain issues with other races'? What are you hinting at there? There's absolutely no reason to bring race in to this. Or are you just not going to answer, swear and tell me to f**k off. You come across as quite an aggressive person, on here at least.

All I wanted was some form of debate.

I'm not hinting at anything, I was giving an example of how people often make excuses for their beliefs, whether it race (I've got black friends), homophobia (I've got gay friends) etc etc. I get pissed off with people screaming that they've been called a racist when they haven't, purely because they started shouting before thinking about what it is they're shouting about. So that's both you and the other chap that have done it in the space of a few days, without being able to show actual evidence of being called racist, wouldn't that wind you up?

As for debate, as i said earlier on, I don't know enough about it to comment on specifically. But i also said that Scotland are not the first country in Europe to have done this, which you were all surprised about when JS also said it, despite you posting up the actual link. It's easy to scream about a headline, without actually doing any homework behind it.

 

[Darran]

"I'm sure you have had plenty of issues with Trans people, similar to people who have certain issues with other races who happen to have friends or family members who are black."

Why say that it is 'similar to people who have certain issues with other races'? What are you hinting at there? There's absolutely no reason to bring race in to this. Or are you just not going to answer, swear and tell me to f**k off. You come across as quite an aggressive person, on here at least.

All I wanted was some form of debate.

Quite aggressive? Very more like.

 

[MrSwerve]

I'm not hinting at anything, I was giving an example of how people often make excuses for their beliefs, whether it race (I've got black friends), homophobia (I've got gay friends) etc etc. I get pissed off with people screaming that they've been called a racist when they haven't, purely because they started shouting before thinking about what it is they're shouting about. So that's both you and the other chap that have done it in the space of a few days, without being able to show actual evidence of being called racist, wouldn't that wind you up?

As for debate, as i said earlier on, I don't know enough about it to comment on specifically. But i also said that Scotland are not the first country in Europe to have done this, which you were all surprised about when JS also said it, despite you posting up the actual link. It's easy to scream about a headline, without actually doing any homework behind it.

Maybe people who have a differing viewpoint are just sick of these half-hearted insinuations whenever they express concerns about something.

So despite not knowing enough about this, you still feel that you can come in and call people 'gammon' and disregard the points that are being debated. I'm not an expert by any means, but I have experience of dealing and working with hundreds of new young people (18+) every year - double that if you include my wife who works with people under 18. It is becoming an issue in cohorts that are growing up at the moment. Now, that is my experience - you can say 'gammon' all you like, but it's nice if you could give a counter-argument...rather than just frantically bash away at your keyboard with no input other than to shut people up. This is a discussion forum - if you can't discuss anything that you aren't an expert in, what is the point? We're all part of society and we all have a valid voice. I would genuinely be interested in counter-arguments and I am happy to debate the point in a calm manner. If not, Phil may as well close PS down now.

No one is screaming on this end. I'm not the one aggressively swearing and calling posters names.

 

[Neath_Jack]

Maybe people who have a differing viewpoint are just sick of these half-hearted insinuations whenever they express concerns about something.

So despite not knowing enough about this, you still feel that you can come in and call people 'gammon' and disregard the points that are being debated. I'm not an expert by any means, but I have experience of dealing and working with hundreds of new young people (18+) every year - double that if you include my wife who works with people under 18. It is becoming an issue in cohorts that are growing up at the moment. Now, that is my experience - you can say 'gammon' all you like, but it's nice if you could give a counter-argument...rather than just frantically bash away at your keyboard with no input other than to shut people up. This is a discussion forum - if you can't discuss anything that you aren't an expert in, what is the point? We're all part of society and we all have a valid voice. I would genuinely be interested in counter-arguments and I am happy to debate the point in a calm manner. If not, Phil may as well close PS down now.

No one is screaming on this end. I'm not the one aggressively swearing and calling posters names.

So that excuses them to make up false accusations? Is that what you are saying?

Again, i didn't call any individual a gammon, for reference i only posted "Gammon from heaven". Which was a twist on manna from heaven, which I'm sure you know what that means.

The you dived in, shouting and balling about me calling you and others names, so more false accusations (it is becoming a theme with some). It appears to me that you are reading what you think i typed and not what i actually typed.

Okay, so you deal with young people, great.

You can discuss whatever you want, who is stopping you? I choose not to discuss such an emotional subject as I have no idea of the new law, I have no idea what it feels like want to transition from one sex to another. Is that okay? It won't stop me pointing bits and pieces of the argument though, especially if people can't be bothered to read the article they linked in the first place, because call me old fashioned, I would want to know the basics of the argument such as if this is done anywhere else in the world, if it is, are there positives and negatives to go off, any studies done etc etc and not just anectodal stuff. Now that would be a proper debate, not discussing headlines.

As for aggressively swearing and name calling, behave will you.

 

[exiledclaseboy]

An emotive and hugely complex subject that attracts strong and extreme views on either “side”. It’s a debate that has to happen and a consensus reached but it would happen much more constructively if it didn’t attract so many intransigent bigots, again often on both sides. If anyone watched some of the debate in the Scottish Parliament this week you’d have seen how to debate this properly, regardless of what you think of the resulting legislation. There’s a balance that has to be struck between the rights of those struggling with gender issues and the rights of biological females (and males now I’m thinking about it). I don’t know whether this law achieves that or not, like all new legislation only time and the interpretations of courts will test that, but I do know that the extreme views and often wilful misinterpretations ams misunderstandings help no one.

DISCLAIMER. I’m not suggesting that this thread has been subject to extreme views on either side. Can’t say the same about other Internet places. Some of the views expressed have been abhorrent. Public discourse is in the shitter in this country.

 

[Darran]

An emotive and hugely complex subject that attracts strong and extreme views on either “side”. It’s a debate that has to happen and a consensus reached but it would happen much more constructively if it didn’t attract so many intransigent bigots, again often on both sides. If anyone watched some of the debate in the Scottish Parliament this week you’d have seen how to debate this properly, regardless of what you think of the resulting legislation. There’s a balance that has to be struck between the rights of those struggling with gender issues and the rights of biological females (and males now I’m thinking about it). I don’t know whether this law achieves that or not, like all new legislation only time and the interpretations of courts will test that, but I do know that the extreme views and often wilful misinterpretations ams misunderstandings help no one.

DISCLAIMER. I’m not suggesting that this thread has been subject to extreme views on either side. Can’t say the same about other Internet places. Some of the views expressed have been abhorrent. Public discourse is in the shitter in this country.

Great post but it’s never going to happen when people with valid views are immediately jumped upon and called gammons and I don’t believe pople like Sharron Davies and J.K.Rowling are gammons.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1606204472278908932?s=46&t=1K9Ntk3YpjnQvXoZU0U6Ew

https://twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1606063288864755712?s=46&t=GLp7GM_KvZVc4SK5px35Jw

 

[exiledclaseboy]

I don’t believe pople like Sharron Davies and J.K.Rowling are gammons.

Neither do I.

 

[Pentyrchjack]

Neither do I.

Neither do I. I’d go as far as to say they are biological women.

 

[JackSomething]

That's interesting JS. I'd also be interested to hear what issues, if any, it has had in those countries.

Agreed. Personally I'd say it's the responsibility of those claiming this is a bad thing to do that legwork, but appreciate others will disagree.

 

[Lisvanejack]

Personally I find this change concerning. My background, to give some idea on what I’m basing my views, is that I’m a psychiatrist working within the NHS, and therefore have a professional understanding of gender dysphoria. That said, it’s not an area that I specialise in.

In my experience, despite the fact that there clearly are a number of people who truly do experience gender dysphoria, I also think that the increased awareness of this (particularly in younger generations) has lead to a not insignificant number of young people attributing their internal feelings of turmoil to gender dysphoria. The problem with that, though, is that there can be many other causes of such feelings, including normal teenage angst, personality disorders and adverse childhood experiences. These causes can de difficult to accept/address, and none have easy solutions/treatments, so for anyone experiencing internal distress as a result of these, the thought that their feelings might be due to gender dysphoria can be appealing, particularly due to the apparent solution to their difficulties (ie transitioning). The not insignificant number of people who experience post-transition regret I think evidences this to some degree.

With that in mind, the removal of the requirement of a medical diagnosis is, in my view, worrying, not just for the potential impact on cis-women and their rights (which is a whole other debate I’m not going into here) but for the swathes of young people who believe they are being offered a solution to their problems that might actually create further problems for them going forward.

 

[Pentyrchjack]

Personally I find this change concerning. My background, to give some idea on what I’m basing my views, is that I’m a psychiatrist working within the NHS, and therefore have a professional understanding of gender dysphoria. That said, it’s not an area that I specialise in.

In my experience, despite the fact that there clearly are a number of people who truly do experience gender dysphoria, I also think that the increased awareness of this (particularly in younger generations) has lead to a not insignificant number of young people attributing their internal feelings of turmoil to gender dysphoria. The problem with that, though, is that there can be many other causes of such feelings, including normal teenage angst, personality disorders and adverse childhood experiences. These causes can de difficult to accept/address, and none have easy solutions/treatments, so for anyone experiencing internal distress as a result of these, the thought that their feelings might be due to gender dysphoria can be appealing, particularly due to the apparent solution to their difficulties (ie transitioning). The not insignificant number of people who experience post-transition regret I think evidences this to some degree.

With that in mind, the removal of the requirement of a medical diagnosis is, in my view, worrying, not just for the potential impact on cis-women and their rights (which is a whole other debate I’m not going into here) but for the swathes of young people who believe they are being offered a solution to their problems that might actually create further problems for them going forward.

Great post.

 

[MrSwerve]

Personally I find this change concerning. My background, to give some idea on what I’m basing my views, is that I’m a psychiatrist working within the NHS, and therefore have a professional understanding of gender dysphoria. That said, it’s not an area that I specialise in.

In my experience, despite the fact that there clearly are a number of people who truly do experience gender dysphoria, I also think that the increased awareness of this (particularly in younger generations) has lead to a not insignificant number of young people attributing their internal feelings of turmoil to gender dysphoria. The problem with that, though, is that there can be many other causes of such feelings, including normal teenage angst, personality disorders and adverse childhood experiences. These causes can de difficult to accept/address, and none have easy solutions/treatments, so for anyone experiencing internal distress as a result of these, the thought that their feelings might be due to gender dysphoria can be appealing, particularly due to the apparent solution to their difficulties (ie transitioning). The not insignificant number of people who experience post-transition regret I think evidences this to some degree.

With that in mind, the removal of the requirement of a medical diagnosis is, in my view, worrying, not just for the potential impact on cis-women and their rights (which is a whole other debate I’m not going into here) but for the swathes of young people who believe they are being offered a solution to their problems that might actually create further problems for them going forward.

Very eloquently put…thanks for posting.

 

[exiledclaseboy]

The U.K. government blocks it. Leaving aside anyones’s perfectly valid views on the merits (or otherwise) of the new law that’s a pretty outrageous move with potentially huge implications for devolution, Scotland and the future of the U.K. as a whole.