The difference between Martin and Martinez

[JackBaston]

So not going bang on about a few things, theyve been spoken about tirelessly
But just going to focus on why I was excited about Martin, and what hes doing wrong since leaving Mk

Martinez brought in the philosophy of 'If we have the ball, the opposition cant score'
For me, thats imperative, thats the main reason we did so well in the championship and premier league to start. Limiting chances, frustrating teams, conserving energy and keeping the ball close to the opposition goal

What excited me about Martin, was that his system was different, but it needs the correct personel... and for his system to work, thats his left and right center back
They need to be full backs, its essentially a lb, cb and rb
They play as extra midfielders in attack, and center backs in defence
At this moment in time, those 2 are Darling and Wood
While at MK, the main player for them was Lewington, a lb converted to cb

Now Naughton and Manning can both do that job, and Darling/Wood/Cabango can sit in that middle slot, but instead hes sitting Naughton back...

The other issue is that at MK there were 2 strikers and a cam, you have that triangle, with the wbs stretching the defence so they cant sit narrow and deep, so that its essentially a front 4, with the cam being pivotal
Instead we seem to be having Paterson and Piroe as more wingers/cams, playing too wide and deep

Im not sure why hes changed so much from his mk philosophy, but i can only assume its the lack of players, especially at the back

Obafemi looks isolated, Piroes playing too deep, not sure if lack of service and wanting to be involved or the system, the 2 center backs are not technical enough to be in midfield, and our wing backs are not hugging the touchline stretching their back line
The lack of triangles is causing our center backs to pass back or across
Grimes is the main playmaker but it needs to be our cam

Sorry for the essay, but if i can see it im shocked he cant

 

[J_B]

I fully get the idea that the opposition can't score without the ball.
It has, however, become an obsession which detracts from the main objective of the sport.
In fact, the obsession with maintaining possession in and around our own penalty area is costing us week in, week out.
Laudrup came here and built on Rodgers' work by installing a possession with purpose attitude whereby we should be threatening to hurt the opposition by the fourth pass.
Opposition just laugh at this system knowing we will create little or nothing and inevitably give them opportunities at some point soon.
We can make any number of changes to the players but until we change the system we'll get nowhere.

 

[JackBaston]

I fully get the idea that the opposition can't score without the ball.
It has, however, become an obsession which detracts from the main objective of the sport.
In fact, the obsession with maintaining possession in and around our own penalty area is costing us week in, week out.
Laudrup came here and built on Rodgers' work by installing a possession with purpose attitude whereby we should be threatening to hurt the opposition by the fourth pass.
Opposition just laugh at this system knowing we will create little or nothing and inevitably give them opportunities at some point soon.
We can make any number of changes to the players but until we change the system we'll get nowhere.

Thats kind of my point though, he hasnt set up the team to have forward passing options

If you look at it when we're supposed to be attacking

WB - Stl - Str - Wb
Lcb - Cam - Rcb
cm - cm
cb

You have triangles for every player. 2 options of passing, if like what mk used to do of playing through the lcb, youd start passing to the lcm, move up, then have the lcm pass to either cam or lcb, then the cam to either striker or lcb to left striker or wing back

 

[3swan]

The difference is EZ

Seriously though both posts shows the failings.

It came naturally to Martinez while it looks as if Martin is trying g to make it work

Also can't remember who said it but we got the mistakes ironed out in the lower divisions and players relaxed with the style in the championship.

Everything we do is forced and alien to the players

 

[cmajack]

So not going bang on about a few things, theyve been spoken about tirelessly
But just going to focus on why I was excited about Martin, and what hes doing wrong since leaving Mk

Martinez brought in the philosophy of 'If we have the ball, the opposition cant score'
For me, thats imperative, thats the main reason we did so well in the championship and premier league to start. Limiting chances, frustrating teams, conserving energy and keeping the ball close to the opposition goal

What excited me about Martin, was that his system was different, but it needs the correct personel... and for his system to work, thats his left and right center back
They need to be full backs, its essentially a lb, cb and rb
They play as extra midfielders in attack, and center backs in defence
At this moment in time, those 2 are Darling and Wood
While at MK, the main player for them was Lewington, a lb converted to cb

Now Naughton and Manning can both do that job, and Darling/Wood/Cabango can sit in that middle slot, but instead hes sitting Naughton back...

The other issue is that at MK there were 2 strikers and a cam, you have that triangle, with the wbs stretching the defence so they cant sit narrow and deep, so that its essentially a front 4, with the cam being pivotal
Instead we seem to be having Paterson and Piroe as more wingers/cams, playing too wide and deep

Im not sure why hes changed so much from his mk philosophy, but i can only assume its the lack of players, especially at the back

Obafemi looks isolated, Piroes playing too deep, not sure if lack of service and wanting to be involved or the system, the 2 center backs are not technical enough to be in midfield, and our wing backs are not hugging the touchline stretching their back line
The lack of triangles is causing our center backs to pass back or across
Grimes is the main playmaker but it needs to be our cam

Sorry for the essay, but if i can see it im shocked he cant

There is nothing more comical in football at the moment than watching Fisher and Naughton trying to take a goal kick between them, particularly when it goes wrong. The opposition fans must be in stitches watching it. This and all the tippy tappy passing at the back completely without any aim or purpose has completely turned people against this manager.

 

[monmouth]

Slight problem for me is, when we have the ball, the opposition are very likely to score.

 

[ARQS]

They're worlds apart.

Martinez played exciting, open, attacking football.

Martin plays boring, open, keep ball football.

There is nothing enjoyable about watching us at the moment

 

[Risc]

I’m not “Martin Out”, and I’d love nothing more than to turn it around, but what we are seeing at the moment compared to Martinez is chalk and cheese. We are too easy to play against, slow, laboured, no pace at all throughout the team. Lesser teams in the league sit in, wait for mistakes and pounce when it happens, and the better teams will just murder our back 3 and wing backs by getting behind.

He needs to throw it away and start over and pray he gets results quickly, otherwise the fans will turn on him completely, and the rest of his players will.

 

[JustJack]

The difference is Martinez system was balanced.

Leon would win it back

Bodde would distribute

Pratley would offer a balance of both

Scotland would hold the ball (and score)

The core of the team complimented one another, at the moment we don't have that same balance.

 

[Uxy]

His record at Swansea is pretty similar to his record at Franchise and, whisper it quietly, they did a lot better after he left. Always difficult to know how much credit to give the incumbent and his predecessor in that circumstance, particularly from the outside.

The defensive frailties of his system were also there at L1 level too.

In part, the perceptions of him are unfair. Our budget now is lower-middle of this league, and that's not been the case for quite some time. Some sections of our fanbase had him pegged as the second coming, presumably based off the Quest highlights show and a goal that involved 57 passes. Harry Darling might well become the next victim of that, but I hope not.

Where it gets a little more awkward is that he's bigged up those perceptions himself, as has the club with that ridiculous vignette last week. A degree more humility wouldn't hurt.

He's the perfect manager for this ownership group. Talks a good game, but not exactly backed it up with results. I think he'll be safe until the situation is untenable, which is only right and proper IMO. The owners are clearly looking to leave and, unless our status is threatened, they'll never take the hit to get rid and I reckon that hit is a lot bigger than some think it is ... we were pretty desperate by the end and had to pay off MK.

I don't think I can ever forgive El Cnuto, but to compare the two is an insult. Martinez was always a deep thinker. His dad was a manager, he was basically a coach in waiting in the later years of his career. He also walked into a better position to be fair, as we were a big fish in league 1 with the underperforming squad of his mates to boot. He is a better manager and he had a better hand. Neither of those things are Martin's fault, in fairness, but he could certainly do worse than look at those old tapes.

 

[monmouth]

Or, Fuck the Process, Trust the Players.

Oh, and pick players in their best positions.

 

[Vetchonian]

They're worlds apart.

Martinez played exciting, open, attacking football.

Martin plays boring, open, keep ball football.

There is nothing enjoyable about watching us at the moment

One is a manager the other isnt

 

[CurtessECarr]

Or, f**k the Process, Trust the Players.

Oh, and pick players in their best positions.

I haven't heard the ''process'' quote yet this season. However I don't read or listen to his pre or post match analysis. Is he still spouting it? :?:

 

[Cooperman]

Or, f**k the Process, Trust the Players.

Oh, and pick players in their best positions.

I haven't heard the ''process'' quote yet this season. However I don't read or listen to his pre or post match analysis. Is he still spouting it? :?:

“The process”? That was so last season, we’ve moved on from there and gone full blown Defcon 5 arse dribble. Have a listen to this pearler from a few days back.

#Aha!

https://twitter.com/swansofficial/status/1554803680905412615?s=21

 

[K23]

IMO, the whole key to possession based football is movement. Under Laudrup, we had Leon and de Guzman in front of him, both of whom were instinctively capable of finding space so that anyone on the pitch, no matter who or where they were, always had an option for a pass and when you've got 2 or 3 players who are always on the move and looking for the ball, that ethos spreads through the team and movement becomes the priority which in turn drives high possession percentages. Leon and JdG were so good at it that it was like having 2 additional players in midfield so even if the opposition matched us up with numbers in midfield, we still often looked like we outnumbered them.

Most of the time, Martin's team has no movement whatsoever in front of the player with the ball so very often, the only pass option if we want to keep possession, is sideways or backwards. You can't make high possession stats the priority if it's not being driven by good movement all over the pitch and likewise, if you don't have enough movement, you simply cannot play possession based football no matter how much you may want to.