The Swansea Way – Duff tells us its in the past

[cadleigh]

I’m perfectly happy to debate this notion of there being a ‘Swansea Way’ with anyone who can actually come up with a workable definition of it, and agree that definition with another exponent of the idea.

With all due respect, ‘passing with intent’ is about as vague as you can get. Are there many managers who try to get their teams to ‘pass without intent’? Some people say it was creating triangles. Martinez never talked about that, and Laudrup certainly didn’t. That was Rodgers’ thing only. Some say short, quick passing. Laudrup moved us on from that. Others talk about our recruitment strategy, or financial model. All very interesting but none of it unique to this club or terribly replicable.

The fact is, the ‘Swansea Way’ is a post-facto rationalisation of a period in our history when we were fortunate enough to recruit and often retain some really talented footballers, and we had three more-than-decent managers who emulated the way the best sides in Europe were playing at the time (ie Barcelona and the Spanish national team). That combination was enjoyable to watch. That’s all. It wasn’t a philosophy, it can’t be bottled, it can’t be repeated. Martin genuinely tried, insofar as he tried to copy the way one of the most successful teams in Europe (Man City) currently plays, with what he thought were the best players he could get his hands on. It was an abject failure at Swansea, and it is failing again at Southampton.

“History repeats itself, first as tragedy and second as farce.”

 

[Darran]

I’m perfectly happy to debate this notion of there being a ‘Swansea Way’ with anyone who can actually come up with a workable definition of it, and agree that definition with another exponent of the idea.

With all due respect, ‘passing with intent’ is about as vague as you can get. Are there many managers who try to get their teams to ‘pass without intent’? Some people say it was creating triangles. Martinez never talked about that, and Laudrup certainly didn’t. That was Rodgers’ thing only. Some say short, quick passing. Laudrup moved us on from that. Others talk about our recruitment strategy, or financial model. All very interesting but none of it unique to this club or terribly replicable.

The fact is, the ‘Swansea Way’ is a post-facto rationalisation of a period in our history when we were fortunate enough to recruit and often retain some really talented footballers, and we had three more-than-decent managers who emulated the way the best sides in Europe were playing at the time (ie Barcelona and the Spanish national team). That combination was enjoyable to watch. That’s all. It wasn’t a philosophy, it can’t be bottled, it can’t be repeated. Martin genuinely tried, insofar as he tried to copy the way one of the most successful teams in Europe (Man City) currently plays, with what he thought were the best players he could get his hands on. It was an abject failure at Swansea, and it is failing again at Southampton.

“History repeats itself, first as tragedy and second as farce.”

You’re on fire Guts.

 

[swansvalleyjack]

I’m perfectly happy to debate this notion of there being a ‘Swansea Way’ with anyone who can actually come up with a workable definition of it,

This'll do for me.

A style that was beautiful to watch and got results. A slick quick passing game, with constructive purpose and on the floor, plenty of pace on the flanks, creative midfield, sound defence comfortable on the ball, and with scorers all over the pitch.

A combination also of successive quality players and managers - Martinez, Rodgers, Laudrup.

Oh ..and Leon, the constant glue holding it all together

And the most successful period in Swansea City history. Fact.

 

[Baron Goblet]

Leon, Nathan and Wayne had a lot to do with the best performances. At times watching Sinclair and Taylor was not exactly the same level.
We played Routs Dyer and Hernandez up front in one game.
I dont believe size matters as much as Duff is claiming however each to his own, he needs to move the team on from the last two seasons if possible.

 

[evzy1975]

Surely the main difference between now and 10-15 years ago is that even in the Championship teams now press much higher and so around 2008-2011 a lot of the time teams would sit deep so we could play out from the back with less risk of the ball being turned over in our own third. The higher press means you probably need players with higher technical ability to play out from the back now than you would have done then.

I think Duff’s main problem is that while he is unflinchingly honest there are times when it’s probably better to say nothing, he could have answered whatever question was posed to him without the “Swansea Way is dead” comment even if it is true. He probably could have helped himself with being more considered in his responses to questions posed on more than one occasion, sad that having to be political is a part of being a manager but it’s the modern way, especially with a fan base where there is hysteria amongst sections of whenever we don’t win a game.

I also agree there are question marks over Duff’s gameplan, there are signs of improvement over the last two games although it has been against two of the worst teams in the division.

The jury is out but getting on his back isn’t going to help anyone though I do think he has fanned the flames more than once with his comments, hopefully people within the club will help him address this tendency.

 

[cadleigh]

This'll do for me.

A style that was beautiful to watch and got results. A slick quick passing game, with constructive purpose and on the floor, plenty of pace on the flanks, creative midfield, sound defence comfortable on the ball, and with scorers all over the pitch.

A combination also of successive quality players and managers - Martinez, Rodgers, Laudrup.

Oh ..and Leon, the constant glue holding it all together

And the most successful period in Swansea City history. Fact.

That's a lovely description of how we played during much of our best period, and I agree with a lot of it.

But there's nothing in your description which makes us unique (apart from Leon, and he's not coming back) - nothing that sets us apart from multiple other football clubs over the past 25 years. For a 'Swansea Way' to make sense, it has to be qualitatively different from what other clubs do, otherwise we'd have 'Ways' all over the League and the term would be meaningless. Honestly, if you took out the names of individual players you could show that to supporters of Liverpool, Man City or Barcelona and they'd say 'yes, you are describing us!'

Also - and I hate to nit pick - our defence under Martinez was often a shambles, Leon was at Sheffield United for a period in the middle and Sousa was a gigantic swerve, swapping the kind of football you describe for dire, defensive football. I have no doubt that the Board asked prospective recruits if they favoured skillful players who would pass the ball on the ground, but Sousa is ultimate proof that the 'Swansea Way' was not a conscious process.

 

[Itchysphincter]

The Swansea Way is keep ball. There’s lots of different ways to play keep ball.

 

[ARQS]

Surely the main difference between now and 10-15 years ago is that even in the Championship teams now press much higher and so around 2008-2011 a lot of the time teams would sit deep so we could play out from the back with less risk of the ball being turned over in our own third. The higher press means you probably need players with higher technical ability to play out from the back now than you would have done then.

The other issue is that when we first started doing it under Martinez we were unique in doing it. Even as a promoted team in the Premier League, it was different. And because it was so unique, we were able to pick up a lot of players, at value, who would thrive with us but not necessarily elsewhere. Therefore, the competition for players wasn't too bad.

If you think back to our time in the Championship 15 years ago, it was full of up and at 'em, big man up front, physical, niggly teams. IMO they are the exception now. There are plenty of teams playing good football so there aren't as many 'displaced' good footballers kicking around looking for opportunities. So players who would fit our model are more in demand and more expensive.

We are also competing against more money in the Premier League and bigger squads. It's now easier for PL clubs to involve the 'fringe' players on a more regular basis, hence they're less likely to drop into the Championship.

All that said, Duff has a new 6ft 4 signing who has barely got a game and instead likes to play with smaller forwards. So long ball merchant, he certainly isn't.

 

[swansvalleyjack]

That's a lovely description of how we played during much of our best period, and I agree with a lot of it.

But there's nothing in your description which makes us unique (apart from Leon, and he's not coming back)

Yes. I agree it wasn't unique. But it's a tag for describing a period that was the most successful in our history, if not the most entertaining of all, for a lot of that time. I think it's fair to say though that for much of the time, especially in Div1 and Championship, it was fairly unique for that period.

Another tag is the Toshack era. Successful and entertaining and it instantly conjures up the rise from Div 4 to Div 1 in record time ( for youngsters that's the Premier League

The fact that several managers successively embraced and developed Martinez' innovations in 2007 (and as a Club we actively pursued like minded managers), was certainly different from the norm in the UK at the time. Arsenal were probably the top proponents in those days.

The Swansea Way tag has stuck and always will ...for THAT period. Call it the "Swansea Way Era" if you like. We could hardly call it the Martinez/ Rodgers/ Laudrup era. Or the MRL era or the 2007 -2014 era.

Anyway, for want of a better description, the Swansea Way will still do for me. An instantly recognisable style ( as I attempted to describe in an earlier post) for 2007 - 2014, with an extra 3 years thrown in 2015 - 2018 for our last ones in the Premier League.

But the Swansea Way has long gone. Fact. Russell Martin tried to emulate it but passing for passing sake, with high retention stats for his CV, gets nowhere near the "Swansea Way Era". Also, it was unwise for Duff to say what he did, any sane Swans fan knows the style of play we were famed for has gone, the game has moved on, we're not idiots...but don't rub our noses in it. We have great affection for how we used to play.

Btw, others posters had it right about the demise of our style when teams figured out that they needed to press us hard. Give the defence no time on the ball. And better quality players were needed to deal with that high press. And often we couldn't. Personally, I first noticed that when David Moyes brought Everton to the Liberty, and his team were set up for that specific purpose. I thought, wow, now we have some problems. And so it proved.

But hey, like the Toshack era, the ride was fantastic.

So now it's reality Swans, I just hope for a bit more entertainment than the last 4 bore-fest years.

 

[Neath_Jack]

I’m perfectly happy to debate this notion of there being a ‘Swansea Way’ with anyone who can actually come up with a workable definition of it, and agree that definition with another exponent of the idea.

With all due respect, ‘passing with intent’ is about as vague as you can get. Are there many managers who try to get their teams to ‘pass without intent’? Some people say it was creating triangles. Martinez never talked about that, and Laudrup certainly didn’t. That was Rodgers’ thing only. Some say short, quick passing. Laudrup moved us on from that. Others talk about our recruitment strategy, or financial model. All very interesting but none of it unique to this club or terribly replicable.

The fact is, the ‘Swansea Way’ is a post-facto rationalisation of a period in our history when we were fortunate enough to recruit and often retain some really talented footballers, and we had three more-than-decent managers who emulated the way the best sides in Europe were playing at the time (ie Barcelona and the Spanish national team). That combination was enjoyable to watch. That’s all. It wasn’t a philosophy, it can’t be bottled, it can’t be repeated. Martin genuinely tried, insofar as he tried to copy the way one of the most successful teams in Europe (Man City) currently plays, with what he thought were the best players he could get his hands on. It was an abject failure at Swansea, and it is failing again at Southampton.

“History repeats itself, first as tragedy and second as farce.”

Now this is a post, fair play.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

I never cease to be amazed by the pragmatic wing of the fan base. They seem to have this constant desire to rubbish the brand of the Swansea way which IS a thing and the most bizarre element is that it’s rubbished for style over substance. When it’s culminated in the most successful eras we’ve witnessed.

Nailed it.

It's a very Swansea thing I think.

They don't call this place a graveyard of ambition for nothing.

It's almost like "we can't have Russell Martin coming down here, with his dyed beard and his comments about 'cultural architects', or Graham Potter with his fancy formations and refusal to shout at players, who the **** do they think they are? Now pass me the meat and potatoes, I'll have none of that foreign muck thank you very much".

It's like we have this insatiable need for muck and nettles. To luxuriate in the shitness of it all. We get uncomfortable if things start to go well.

Every club has its troglodytes, but I do think ours are somewhat more pronounced than others.

I suppose with views like that though, it must make me "entitled", or one of those "twats". If that's the case, I'm fine with that. I'd rather be one of them, than still working out how to rub two sticks together to make a fire.

 

[Swanjaxs]

Christ there's some raging egos going on in this thread, four points from 6 and hopefully something from East London on Saturday will do me, shìt football or not...

 

[Neath_Jack]

Christ there's some raging egos going on in this thread, four points from 6 and hopefully something from East London on Saturday will do me, shìt football or not...

Massive egomaniacs.

 

[LeonWasTheDog's]

I'm struggling to see Duff's supposed normal style at the moment, which is supposed to be getting the ball forward quickly. When you look at the 'team sequence styles' in the stats, we're the slowest team at moving the ball up the pitch (Direct Speed) (third graphic down on this page) https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/championship-stats-2023-24-opta/

We're also very low for direct attacks (only 7). But we do have a high number of 'high turnovers' (77, which is 3rd in the league after Leeds and Ipswich), which suggests we are starting to press from the front more.

Nothing we didn't already know of course, although I hadn't quite appreciated we'd won the ball back high up the pitch as much as we have, but the press from Yates and Jamal is there to see, even if the midfield aren't always on the same page.

It's been bleeding obvious we're painfully slow moving the ball forwards - that stat doesn't surprise me in the least. Until that's fixed and we find a way to build sequences through the lines quickly, I don't think we'll be seeing the attacking style people are hoping for.

 

[cadleigh]

Nailed it.

It's a very Swansea thing I think.

They don't call this place a graveyard of ambition for nothing.

It's almost like "we can't have Russell Martin coming down here, with his dyed beard and his comments about 'cultural architects', or Graham Potter with his fancy formations and refusal to shout at players, who the **** do they think they are? Now pass me the meat and potatoes, I'll have none of that foreign muck thank you very much".

It's like we have this insatiable need for muck and nettles. To luxuriate in the shitness of it all. We get uncomfortable if things start to go well.

Every club has its troglodytes, but I do think ours are somewhat more pronounced than others.

I suppose with views like that though, it must make me "entitled", or one of those "twats". If that's the case, I'm fine with that. I'd rather be one of them, than still working out how to rub two sticks together to make a fire.

And there you go again. You can't win an argument by addressing what people are actually saying, so instead you make something up that you wish they had said, and then you have a go. There is literally no one on here, or any other forum as far as I am aware, who doesn't like the football we played under Martinez, Rodgers and Laudrup, who thinks that that was not a Golden Age for the club, or wishes that Sousa had had longer in charge. This discussion is only about whether it's accurate, or even helpful, to characterise that period as one where we followed a mystical 'Swansea Way' that we subsequently departed from, resulting in our fall from grace. It's magical thinking IMO.

There is no troglodyte faction, champing at the bit for hoofball. You just invented that. The reason people didn't like Martin wasn't because he was too sophisticated for us but because he played mind-numbingly boring, walking football. That's all.