Worst first 5 games since when?

[ARQS]

Anyone know the last time we didn’t win a single one of our first 5 league games?

This is our worst start since when?

 

[Captain_Sham]

Cusak? Thats a guess. (A wrong guess, we won the 3rd game) Sousa was a rough start. (4th game, 1st win) I will go and check. Colin Appleton is another candidate. Soccerbase beckons.
Edits as I go. League games obviously.
Clement won 4th game the season we went down.

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15 year golden period . If you started watching us here, you must be finding this all very difficult.

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2000-01 won 4th game
1991 -1992 - 8th game!
1989 Ian Evans won the 4th game.
1985 John Bond won 5th game
Even Colin Appleton got a win on 5th game.1984 - 85 .
Tosh 83-84 5th game
I have gone all the way back to re-election.

Worst start since 91.

 

[Captain_Sham]

I will point out that the manager at that time was none other Frankie Burrows, who went on have great period here so lets not be too hasty to write off Duff.
I will also point to 96 - 97, under Molby, when although we won the first game, we made an absolutely terrible start and yet made the playoffs. That's two of our more fondly remembered managers, who had historically hideous starts to the season but went on to turn things round. Maybe that's why they are fondly remembered, because they did prevail through tough times.
It IS a funny old game and I for one hope he is given time.

 

[cadleigh]

I will point out that the manager at that time was none other Frankie Burrows, who went on have great period here so lets not be too hasty to write off Duff.
I will also point to 96 - 97, under Molby, when although we won the first game, we made an absolutely terrible start and yet made the playoffs. That's two of our more fondly remembered managers, who had historically hideous starts to the season but went on to turn things round. Maybe that's why they are fondly remembered, because they did prevail through tough times.
It IS a funny old game and I for one hope he is given time.

Great post. Far too early to be panicking and given the MO of the current Board, they won't even consider paying him off until the end of next season*, so talk of sacking him is ridiculous.

However, there are some good questions to be asked about his team's performances so far, such as:
- Why has a defence that finally started to click under Martin suddenly turned into a shambles?
- Why - given his emphasis on fitness pre-season and unwillingness to play new recruits who aren't at peak fitness, are our players strolling around the pitch and - according to the commentators on Radio Wales - looking a lot less fit than the opposition yesterday?**
- Why did he start yesterday's game with a back five when he didn't have the players he needed to make it work? (Naughton can play at Left Back. You wouldn't get much movement out of him so you'd be reliant on his winger doing all the attacking work, but it would plug the hole in defence on that side.)
- Why are we so soft in the tackle? (Are our players used to passing the ball before anyone comes near them, even if it means a hospital pass to the 'keeper?)

As with Martin and Monk, I'd prefer to see an experienced assistant manager or DoF type figure*** brought in to help Duff turn things around rather than sacking him any time soon. And unlike Martin or Monk I think he'd accept.

* Seriously can't believe we gave him a three year contract. Have we learned nothing from Cooper and Martin? I just hope there's a probation period in there.
** This is a recurring theme. I definitely remember Martin's team being accused of not being match fit (apparently this was because he didn't have a pre-season...), possibly Cooper too?
*** A proper one, I mean.

 

[PSumbler]

Duff may or may not turn out to be the manager to take the club forward (the early signs are not good admittedly)

But to change the manager after just five games having backed him with so many (jury out on most) new signings would be as bad as turning down £10m for Wood

His comments last night wouldn't have helped but my view is he made those comments to stop our local press trying to ramp up the pressure over the next game.

Let's assess again at the next international break which I think is around mid October by which time we will have played 11/12 games

Edit: And there is definitely an element of our support that will jump on every game purely as Michael Duff is not Russell Martin yet managed to not worry about a run of form that saw us win (I think) 4 in 24 last season, 3 of which were against 10 men

 

[sainthelens]

Great post. Far too early to be panicking and given the MO of the current Board, they won't even consider paying him off until the end of next season*, so talk of sacking him is ridiculous.

However, there are some good questions to be asked about his team's performances so far, such as:
- Why has a defence that finally started to click under Martin suddenly turned into a shambles?
- Why - given his emphasis on fitness pre-season and unwillingness to play new recruits who aren't at peak fitness, are our players strolling around the pitch and - according to the commentators on Radio Wales - looking a lot less fit than the opposition yesterday?**
- Why did he start yesterday's game with a back five when he didn't have the players he needed to make it work? (Naughton can play at Left Back. You wouldn't get much movement out of him so you'd be reliant on his winger doing all the attacking work, but it would plug the hole in defence on that side.)
- Why are we so soft in the tackle? (Are our players used to passing the ball before anyone comes near them, even if it means a hospital pass to the 'keeper?)

As with Martin and Monk, I'd prefer to see an experienced assistant manager or DoF type figure*** brought in to help Duff turn things around rather than sacking him any time soon. And unlike Martin or Monk I think he'd accept.

* Seriously can't believe we gave him a three year contract. Have we learned nothing from Cooper and Martin? I just hope there's a probation period in there.
** This is a recurring theme. I definitely remember Martin's team being accused of not being match fit (apparently this was because he didn't have a pre-season...), possibly Cooper too?
*** A proper one, I mean.

Sorry but I've massive doubts with this guy. Yes we have new signings to come in, but here's a thing....hes had a full pre season plus 6 games to work with players who finished last year like a train, and turned us into a shambles literally overnight. Yes you can argue he wants to change a style of play, but even as individuals we look awful. Now unless the new guys are minor miracle makers....the next 6/7 months could be sickening.

 

[ARQS]

Thanks Sham. Very interesting and I certainly struggled to remember a worse start.

There are still elements of Duff that I like. I do like his honesty after games whereas Martin would have said how brave we were and how we’d dominated possession etc.

Way too early of course but lots of worrying signs. If we end worse off than 1991/92 however, especially given our next three games, then the pressure on Duff is going to be massive

 

[monmouth]

Duff may or may not turn out to be the manager to take the club forward (the early signs are not good admittedly)

But to change the manager after just five games having backed him with so many (jury out on most) new signings would be as bad as turning down £10m for Wood

His comments last night wouldn't have helped but my view is he made those comments to stop our local press trying to ramp up the pressure over the next game.

Let's assess again at the next international break which I think is around mid October by which time we will have played 11/12 games

Edit: And there is definitely an element of our support that will jump on every game purely as Michael Duff is not Russell Martin yet managed to not worry about a run of form that saw us win (I think) 4 in 24 last season, 3 of which were against 10 men

I just don’t get the last bit. It’s not like Martin would be coming back if Duff was erased. Are they going to hate every manager from now to forever?

My issue with Duff off the field remains. He’s describing what happens on the field as if it is nothing to do with him and still picking the players that do it in the formation that gives them the platform to do it. Personally I’d like to see him ramping up the pressure on the Cardiff game so that no one is in any doubt that this matters (everyone knows it’s a critical game anyway, whatever he says). For once, it’s not because it’s them, but because we have been appalling for five games and it can’t be allowed to continue. He, and the team need to front up at the piggery.

 

[cadleigh]

I just don’t get the last bit. It’s not like Martin would be coming back if Duff was erased. Are they going to hate every manager from now to forever?

My issue with Duff off the field remains. He’s describing what happens on the field as if it is nothing to do with him and still picking the players that do it in the formation that gives them the platform to do it. Personally I’d like to see him ramping up the pressure on the Cardiff game so that no one is in any doubt that this matters (everyone knows it’s a critical game anyway, whatever he says). For once, it’s not because it’s them, but because we have been appalling for five games and it can’t be allowed to continue. He, and the team need to front up at the piggery.

On your first question, there are some supporters who hate the owners with a vengeance. I know at least one who posts on here who never pays for a ticket on principle - he cadges other people's season tickets sometimes, but mostly watches games via VPN. I presume he won't go back until the Yanks have gone. For those supporters (and I can understand why they feel like they do about the owners, even though I don't share their visceral dislike of our shareholders, so let's not go down that rabbit hole), Martin was seen as some sort of anti-Board manager - maybe because he so obviously had a lot of power across the club (dictating how the youth teams played, appearing to have a lot of say over the recruitment of players like Darling, Wood, Fisher etc, working with two fairly low-key senior colleagues in Allen and Winter, pushing out Tate and Scott). This was magnified when he started criticising the Board in public and they refused to back him - irrespective of what you thought of his football (and many of the people I am describing genuinely liked it a lot), he became a poster boy/martyr/symbol of all that's bad about the Yanks. In contrast, Duff has come in at a time of strong leadership at the club that's aligned with the Board, and he's made it very clear he's a Head Coach, not God-Emperor of Swansea City, so he's instantly been written off as a patsy for the same reasons Martin was idolised. The football hasn't helped but these supporters were moaning about a switch to 'Duffball' before a ball had been kicked under his management. I doubt they'd have been happy if he'd produced a carbon copy of Martin's style. The same mentality explains the attachment to Guidolin - he was the last appointee before the Americans bought the club, so he would be a martyr in line for beatitude even if they hadn't sacked him on his birthday. Forget the football, it's the symbolism that counts.

 

[Copamundial]

Since Colin Appleton, strangely enough he left a team who had just missed out on promotion to join us, some of us remember how that ended.

 

[cadleigh]

I just don’t get the last bit. It’s not like Martin would be coming back if Duff was erased. Are they going to hate every manager from now to forever?

My issue with Duff off the field remains. He’s describing what happens on the field as if it is nothing to do with him and still picking the players that do it in the formation that gives them the platform to do it. Personally I’d like to see him ramping up the pressure on the Cardiff game so that no one is in any doubt that this matters (everyone knows it’s a critical game anyway, whatever he says). For once, it’s not because it’s them, but because we have been appalling for five games and it can’t be allowed to continue. He, and the team need to front up at the piggery.

On your second point, I thought Martin was awful at taking personal responsibility for shortcomings on the field, whereas Duff tends to use 'we' a lot more. But it's all confirmation bias at the end of the day.

One of the issues we have, I think, is that football developed during the peak period when the idea that "The History of the world is but the Biography of great men" (Carlyle) was fashionable. We elevate the 'manager' to star status and reinforce this through the manager doing solo press conferences before and after games, so the story of a team performance (including the backroom team) is simplified into the execution of one person's grand strategy. If they make it even more about them with extravagent first pumps, people like it even more. It's not helpful IMO.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

On your first question, there are some supporters who hate the owners with a vengeance. I know at least one who posts on here who never pays for a ticket on principle - he cadges other people's season tickets sometimes, but mostly watches games via VPN. I presume he won't go back until the Yanks have gone. For those supporters (and I can understand why they feel like they do about the owners, even though I don't share their visceral dislike of our shareholders, so let's not go down that rabbit hole), Martin was seen as some sort of anti-Board manager - maybe because he so obviously had a lot of power across the club (dictating how the youth teams played, appearing to have a lot of say over the recruitment of players like Darling, Wood, Fisher etc, working with two fairly low-key senior colleagues in Allen and Winter, pushing out Tate and Scott). This was magnified when he started criticising the Board in public and they refused to back him - irrespective of what you thought of his football (and many of the people I am describing genuinely liked it a lot), he became a poster boy/martyr/symbol of all that's bad about the Yanks. In contrast, Duff has come in at a time of strong leadership at the club that's aligned with the Board, and he's made it very clear he's a Head Coach, not God-Emperor of Swansea City, so he's instantly been written off as a patsy for the same reasons Martin was idolised. The football hasn't helped but these supporters were moaning about a switch to 'Duffball' before a ball had been kicked under his management. I doubt they'd have been happy if he'd produced a carbon copy of Martin's style. The same mentality explains the attachment to Guidolin - he was the last appointee before the Americans bought the club, so he would be a martyr in line for beatitude even if they hadn't sacked him on his birthday. Forget the football, it's the symbolism that counts.

Instead of posting batshit crazy guff like that, have you stopped to consider for one minute that there are many people out there who don't care Martin has gone, they just have a problem with Duff on its own merits?

- Like the complete lack of any sort of inkling of a plan.

- Inability to show us, on the field, what "high octane" and "on the front foot" football actually means.

- Rank stupid comments in interviews like yesterday's derby debacle, and after West Brom where he criticised the players for the "crime" of keeping the ball.

- Brought in as a 'results-first' manager according to Andy Coleman (the clear implication that his predecessor wasn't) but doesn't get results. Christ, it was often as bad to watch under Cooper, but at least he knew how to dig out a 1-0.

So, for the last time - objections to Duff do not mean an affiliation/loyalty to Russell Martin, who, by the way, no one bangs on about as much as you do. Nearly every single post you mention him in some way, shape or form.

Who's obsessed again, remind me?

 

[TerryPHELAN]

I will point out that the manager at that time was none other Frankie Burrows, who went on have great period here so lets not be too hasty to write off Duff.
I will also point to 96 - 97, under Molby, when although we won the first game, we made an absolutely terrible start and yet made the playoffs. That's two of our more fondly remembered managers, who had historically hideous starts to the season but went on to turn things round. Maybe that's why they are fondly remembered, because they did prevail through tough times.
It IS a funny old game and I for one hope he is given time.

Ah 1991! Halcyon days of the likes of Roger, Walker, Super Johny Cornforth! We made an abysmal start, then after beating Wigan in March 92 we were five points off the play offs. Then proceeded to not win any of our last 12 or so matches.
I think Duff will come good eventually

 

[cadleigh]

Instead of posting batshit crazy guff like that, have you stopped to consider for one minute that there are many people out there who don't care Martin has gone, they just have a problem with Duff on its own merits?

- Like the complete lack of any sort of inkling of a plan.

- Inability to show us, on the field, what "high octane" and "on the front foot" football actually means.

- Rank stupid comments in interviews like yesterday's derby debacle, and after West Brom where he criticised the players for the "crime" of keeping the ball.

- Brought in as a 'results-first' manager according to Andy Coleman (the clear implication that his predecessor wasn't) but doesn't get results. Christ, it was often as bad to watch under Cooper, but at least he knew how to dig out a 1-0.

So, for the last time - objections to Duff do not mean an affiliation/loyalty to Russell Martin, who, by the way, no one bangs on about as much as you do. Nearly every single post you mention him in some way, shape or form.

Who's obsessed again, remind me?

Three quick observations, Andrew.
1 I was responding to Monmouth's question about Martin. If you can think of a way for me to do that without using the 'M' word, congratulations.
2 There's an ignore button on here. If my posts annoy you, then why not use that facility rather than creepily responding to every single thing I post. I make it a rule not to respond to your posts (this is an exception) because I am well aware that this only results in you endlessly banging on in order to get the last word - invariably ignoring 99% of what I say and either latching on to one small aspect that you think you might be able to counter, or (as in this case) ignoring 100% of what I say and just trying to get a dig in. Don't hunt what you can't kill :lol: :lol: :lol:
3 I am glad to see you have dropped your fake 'I'm not anti Duff, I'm just a reasonable guy who has some questions' schtick. Reminded me of a low-rent Columbo.
Have a great day and maybe try looking up 'obsession' in the dictionary.

 

[ARQS]

1991 -1992 - 8th game!

Worst start since 91.

That’s now been equalled. 2 points after 6 games for both. We had 3 draws after 7 games that season.