Charlie Kirk

[rockinj]

If I’m understanding that diagram correctly it implies that “the right” has held its positions and “the left” has marched inexorably further to the extremes. In my view that’s demonstrably untrue. While I wouldn’t argue that some elements of “the left” have become more or extreme, when you consider the political discourse now I don’t see how anyone can argue that “the right” hasn’t done the same. When I was younger “the right” was that of Thatcher, Reagan and Major. Now it’s Farage, Tice, Lowe, Badenoch, Yaxley Lennon. The first three would have found the second group completely unhinged and distasteful. The biggest “left” party in the UK has Starmer, a fairly pragmatic centrist, as its leader. In the US it’s in disarray but its last leader was Biden. Again, hardly a bastion of extreme leftism. I can see how that diagram holds comfort for those who like to think that their own positions haven’t changed but everyone else’s has though. There’s a a lot of that self delusion about now. (Last two sentences not aimed at you but a general observation).

It’s not mainstream soft left that we’re talking about. It’s the extremes which have been even more prevalent in the States.

For the avoidance of doubt this isn’t about classic “big State” Nationalisation stuff. This is the extremes towards anti traditional families, pro mass immigration, culture wars etc.

Now is it true the right have played up this yes absolutely. But there’s no question that the “woke” stuff has taken hold in left wing circles and people rightly or wrongly feel their way of life under attack.

When this happens people who hold naturally socially conservative positions have either held steady and suddenly become more right wing or have moved more towards a conservative position as has been depicted a few posts up.

To understand this stuff you have to forget the recent MAGA stuff for a min and recognise that there have been DRAMATIC social shifts away from what many of us knew or know. Be that eg traditional families or multicultural society.

If you hate Charlie Kirk politics then there needs a lot of self reflection. This also applies to moderate conservatives who have talked tough and done nothing.

 

[Pompeyjack]

Isn’t it a shame we don’t see this outpouring of grief and shock on here about the thousands of innocent women and kids who are still being slaughtered in Gaza.

I’ve watched the clip a few times again today in the gym.

Every single life is important and a loss of it is horrendous. Unfortunately the world appears to want to score points with "this lost life is more important than that lost life". Democratic countries vote in their leaders, if the leaders get it wrong then they get voted out. Unfortunately there are countries where they do not have this luxury and are run by despots who don't care about their people and care even less about their women and girls

 

[Neath_Jack]

Every single life is important and a loss of it is horrendous. Unfortunately the world appears to want to score points with "this lost life is more important than that lost life". Democratic countries vote in their leaders, if the leaders get it wrong then they get voted out. Unfortunately there are countries where they do not have this luxury and are run by despots who don't care about their people and care even less about their women and girls

On the flip side some want to express faux grief over some bellend because he aligns to their way of thinking. What about all the mass shootinga that happen in that crackpot country every week? Don’t seee an outpouring of grief for those poor souls, why? Because they are normal everyday people.

 

[Itchysphincter]

On the flip side some want to express faux grief over some bellend because he aligns to their way of thinking. What about all the mass shootinga that happen in that crackpot country every week? Don’t seee an outpouring of grief for those poor souls, why? Because they are normal everyday people.

Faux grief, perfect, and the anger some people are feeling is incomprehensible, as if they had some kind of personal connection to the bloke. He was an antagonist and an Agent Provocateur, albeit a highly intelligent and articulate one. People really have been hoodwinked and it’s desperately hopeless for younger generations as normalisation of the shift to the right takes us further down the shitpipe.

Instead of people constantly being angry, hateful and anti-liberal they need to consider where the direction of travel that this bandwagon they’re so desperate to be in is going to lead us. It ain’t anywhere good.

 

[Pompeyjack]

On the flip side some want to express faux grief over some bellend because he aligns to their way of thinking. What about all the mass shootinga that happen in that crackpot country every week? Don’t seee an outpouring of grief for those poor souls, why? Because they are normal everyday people.

A life lost before time is horrendous whether people agree or disagree with that person's views, it is still a sad loss. There are thousands of people being murdered daily across the world. What I personally don't agree with is people celebrating the loss wether it's people on the left or the right. We should be educating our next generation that this is not acceptable.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

It’s hardly a particularly difficult leap to make “leftist” leftie left winger whatever you want to use. It wasn’t directed at you personally.

I’ve tried many times on here to have more interesting debates but it always drifts this way. I’m not defending his views, I’ve already said that I’m simply explaining what he was doing and why the classic “he’s racist” is precisely what he wants you to come back with.

That’s all it’s been for 20 bloody years now, he’s a racist, he’s a sexist, he’s …..

What have we got for this level of debate? MAGA. Reform. Le Pen. Far right Govs everywhere you turn. People are sick of it and the grifters and ideologues on the right have played off this.

I just don’t think you understand the points I’m making because your default position is set in stone and on we go while the few of us out there trying to steer a course back to the centre and sanity just despair.

Right, I'm beginning to understand what you're on about now.

I do sort of agree that what passes for debate these days is often reduced to juvenile taunts, people need to be better. However, I really don't think there's much alternative to calling demonstrable racists racist.

If they want to weaponise that label, then that's on them. I don't think we should stop calling them out because we should be scared of what they might do in response.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

I finally put on the hazmat suit and went back on twitter, altough I am not watching that video. The very first thing I saw was this. Im not a conservative by any means, but on reflection it appears to apply to myself to a degree on certain issues, mainly Gender Politics. My views are pretty much what they have always been but as the world changes I end up going further right by the day. Im not posting this to antagonise, its just something that does appear to be happening, whoever is causing it. I think this what Andrew was talking about. View attachment 6687

That image is actually the opposite of what I was talking about.

This is what I was talking about.

 

[Itchysphincter]

A life lost before time is horrendous whether people agree or disagree with that person's views, it is still a sad loss. There are thousands of people being murdered daily across the world. What I personally don't agree with is people celebrating the loss wether it's people on the left or the right. We should be educating our next generation that this is not acceptable.

I haven’t seen anyone celebrating the loss. That sort of assertion is passively aggressively attempting to control the narrative, maybe political agenda. It’s a loss for his family and friends but compared to other losses and atrocities felt daily by some it doesn’t even move the needle.

 

[Epaul]

So I'm apparently far right for pointing out his views and stating they are abhorrent views, I did say his murder was abhorrent though

 

[Pompeyjack]

I haven’t seen anyone celebrating the loss. That sort of assertion is passively aggressively attempting to control the narrative, maybe political agenda. It’s a loss for his family and friends but compared to other losses and atrocities felt daily by some it doesn’t even move the needle.

I did not state in my post that I talking about anyone in particular so not trying to "control the narrative". Why does there have to be a needle? 1 person's life is no more important than yours or mine. I would feel more comfortable with my world if Putin was to be taken out.

 

[Darran]

You can abhor Charlie Kirk & his beliefs & unequivocally condemn murder.
You can do both,it shouldn’t be hard. It’s what grown up, civilised, tolerant people do.
The biggest problem is that people are cunts & think they’re correct in every post,tweet etc they make.

Oh & people using the term Nazi on social media to describe some of these right wing twats need a good beating, they have no idea of history it’s just a word to them.
Adolf Hitler ordered the assassination of 6 million Jews,Charlie Kirk ordered the assassination of ……. ?

 

[exiledclaseboy]

You can abhor Charlie Kirk & his beliefs & unequivocally condemn murder.
You can do both,it shouldn’t be hard. It’s what grown up, civilised, tolerant people do.
The biggest problem is that people are cunts & think they’re correct in every post,tweet etc they make.

Oh & people using the term Nazi on social media to describe some of these right wing twats need a good beating, they have no idea of history it’s just a word to them.
Adolf Hitler ordered the assassination of 6 million Jews,Charlie Kirk ordered the assassination of ……. ?

You don’t have to kill six million people to hold nazi views. That’s one of the most brainless opinions ever expressed.

But I agree with your general point as I said many pages ago.

 

[rockinj]

You don’t have to kill six million people to hold nazi views. That’s one of the most brainless opinions ever expressed.

But I agree with your general point as I said many pages ago.

Let’s go back to the example about black pilots.

If someone is politically right wing and against affirmative action (people placed in employment potentially above their skill set based on race/sex etc)

If the view is taken that they’d feel uncomfortable with someone black flying the plane because they were worried about them being under qualified to fly based on affirmative action is this the same as a simply not wanting them to fly the plane because they are black

This is the nuance that is very important here.

Kirk from what I can see has a fan base with those from an immigrant background who hold old fashioned conservative views eg nuclear family with woman in the home.

You can fundamentally disagree with that position but it’s a viewpoint. It was very much the thinking up until around the 1960s and there is a growing movement in the states that is favouring a return to this position.

Again I’m not saying I agree with any of this. But as many on this thread are demonstrating having conservative positions is simply something they find uncomfortable.

I don’t believe this level of discourse existed in the past when people could argue with each other and then have a pint.

 

[ThurrockJack]

You can abhor Charlie Kirk & his beliefs & unequivocally condemn murder.
You can do both,it shouldn’t be hard. It’s what grown up, civilised, tolerant people do.
The biggest problem is that people are cunts & think they’re correct in every post,tweet etc they make.

Oh & people using the term Nazi on social media to describe some of these right wing twats need a good beating, they have no idea of history it’s just a word to them.
Adolf Hitler ordered the assassination of 6 million Jews,Charlie Kirk ordered the assassination of ……. ?

The administration he supported is without any shadow of a doubt an authoritarian one that is leaning into Fascism. Calling them Nazi's is silly when an accurate description is available.

 

[rockinj]

The administration he supported is without any shadow of a doubt an authoritarian one that is leaning into Fascism. Calling them Nazi's is silly when an accurate description is available.

Absolutely.

Nazism had its own ideology.

This is an Authoritarian populist right wing Gov with shifts towards fascism. I do actually think they are fascist.

But nazis are a different level.