Data in football

[magicdaps10]

Why such a big push towards it?

I see lots of things going wrong with the use of data.
Who puts the data in and is their judgement right in the first instance.
Building a team around data, you are relying on a person to control the style that isn't necessarily correct in the first place to then pick players from a database to fit it.

I understand it's an handy tool to have but it seems concerning that so many people seem to be relying heavily on it, especially given alot of trust needs to be put in people entering the correct information in the first place, a process I feel can produce many mistakes and surely many areas would fall on the data inputers opinion.

 

[Stopthebus]

I imagine there’s plenty of data to show data works

 

[Cooperman]

Data availability is one thing, the ability to interpret what it says and how to react to it is a different skill altogether. We will be worse off without a meaningful data collection scheme and the analysts to tell us how to move. Marginal gains are what every team seeks to find.

 

[magicdaps10]

Data availability is one thing, the ability to interpret what it says and how to react to it is a different skill altogether. We will be worse off without a meaningful data collection scheme and the analysts to tell us how to move. Marginal gains are what every team seeks to find.

It's a handy tool for sure but heavily reliant on capable individuals putting in as close to the correct data.
We then move in to people picking a style of football who then pick players from a database to then make a successful football team.

It's a huge ask for me, for every success then I bet it's 100s of failures.

 

[Cooperman]

It's a handy tool for sure but heavily reliant on capable individuals putting in as close to the correct data.
We then move in to people picking a style of football who then pick players from a database to then make a successful football team.

It's a huge ask for me, for every success then I bet it's 100s of failures.

This is not how it works, we haven’t got a team of people typing numbers into what started life as a blank Excel file. Instead we will have paid for access to various data collection models, the output of which is made available to analysts who interpret the picture and develop recommendations on how to react.

 

[magicdaps10]

This is not how it works, we haven’t got a team of people typing numbers into what started life as a blank Excel file. Instead we will have paid for access to various data collection models, the output of which is made available to analysts who interpret the picture and develop recommendations on how to react.

So someone is inputting the data(a separate business) and the we are reliant on the analysts getting it right?

I just can't see it being a success unfortunately. Just seems like a, let's type it into the computer and that will give us the answer approach.

 

[KOL]

Modern football according to Daps

 

[magicdaps10]

View attachment 5253

Modern football according to Daps

Wouldn't be far off with our lot though!

It's just strange when you read posters having a pop at lets say football manager and are then trying to stand up for data use in football.
Data has it's place but I personally think it's becoming too much of a power in the process when it comes to recruiting players.

Football is so accessible on the TV these days, it does take a lot more time and effort but certainly a better route than looking at databases that have ultimately been set up by someone you might not have or will ever meet........the end game should then be popping over to watch a couple of games after initially finding the player to see them play first hand.

 

[Bulbo]

It's a useful tool when utilised correctly as American sports have been using it for quite a few years.

Say you want to hire a winger for primary a 4-3-3 formation game style.

There exists heat map data from thousands of games where it shows just how many touches a left winger in a 4-3-3 formation has made. Then you could also check the accuracy and numbers of passes that wingers in 4-3-3 made in each game, plus how many direct assists or goals they scored. If you have access to this data you can train an AI model to comb through it in seconds and identify names of players involved with high numbers of touches/assists/passes whatever you want really. You then assign a scout to personally look for players with similar playstyles to those identified by the AI (let's face it we can't afford to buy the named performers).

It's all very cool in theory and when used as one tool amongst many, but are we doing it right ? and will we ever do it right ?

Probably not and I feel it's just a buzzword for Coleman at this point in time, whenever he says "data driven" I actually hear "massive mistake".

*made a couple of edits to fix spelling*

 

[Cooperman]

It's a useful tool when utilised correctly as American sports have been using it for quite a few years.

Say you want to hire a winger for primary a 4-3-3 formation game style.

There exists heat map data from thousands of games where it shows just how many touches a left winger in a 4-3-3 formation has made. Then you could also check the accuracy and numbers of passes that wingers in 4-3-3 made in each game, plus how many direct assists or goals they scored. If you have access to this data you can train an AI model to comb through it in seconds and identify names of players involved with high numbers of touches/assists/passes whatever you want really. You then assign a scout to personally look for players with similar playstyles to those idendified by the AI (let's face it we can't afford to buy the named performers).

It's all very cool in theory and when used as one tool amongst many, but as are we doing it right ? and will we ever do it right ?

Probably not and I feel it's just a buzzword for Coleman at this point in time, whenever he says "data driven" I actually hear "massive mistake".

The penultimate paragraph is the challenge for any organisation like ours.

 

[Cooperman]

So someone is inputting the data(a separate business) and the we are reliant on the analysts getting it right?

I just can't see it being a success unfortunately. Just seems like a, let's type it into the computer and that will give us the answer approach.

No, not like this.

 

[magicdaps10]

No, not like this.

Just had a read through Bulbo's post and it's opened it up a bit more for me even in his brief post. I probably won't get everything from what it's being laid out to do, I think that shows

I'm still quite sceptical on it, sorry

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

It may work for American sports like baseball, where are lot of the KPIs can be reduced to decisions like "does he hit the ball more often than not? Y/N". But as we all know, football is full of little quirks and oddities, many of which you can't quantify.

Even the stats you can quantify often don't tell you the full picture. If you had a look at Grimes on a spreadsheet, you'd probably get told here's a guy who never gives the ball away and is always fit. What the data won't tell you is that he rarely loses the ball because he plays with zero risk and passes backwards and sideways most of the time, and he's always fit because he never engages physically. He's a pretty ineffectual player - but some of the stats might tell you otherwise.

There is no substitute for the good old fashioned eyeball test. Not sure there's enough of that going on at our club anymore, and not for a long time.

 

[Cooperman]

It may work for American sports like baseball, where are lot of the KPIs can be reduced to decisions like "does he hit the ball more often than not? Y/N". But as we all know, football is full of little quirks and oddities, many of which you can't quantify.

Even the stats you can quantify often don't tell you the full picture. If you had a look at Grimes on a spreadsheet, you'd probably get told here's a guy who never gives the ball away and is always fit. What the data won't tell you is that he rarely loses the ball because he plays with zero risk and passes backwards and sideways most of the time, and he's always fit because he never engages physically. He's a pretty ineffectual player - but some of the stats might tell you otherwise.

There is no substitute for the good old fashioned eyeball test. Not sure there's enough of that going on at our club anymore, and not for a long time.

That’s true. Whilst the data aspect is a key component, it’s not the only component.

 

[Cooperman]

Just had a read through Bulbo's post and it's opened it up a bit more for me even in his brief post. I probably won't get everything from what it's being laid out to do, I think that shows

I'm still quite sceptical on it, sorry

It’s a broad and deep subject, without a doubt. My professional life crosses over F1 telemetry and that is mind blowing in terms of the collection methods, processing methods and the ultra fine marginal gains that it delivers. Whilst football and motor sports are worlds apart, but that’s not to say that there is no place in football for a data driven strategy, however it’s not the only driver.