How big a team are we (and others)

[ABSwan]

The things you do when your bored and watching bland TV program's in the middle of a pandemic.

Well I decided in my ultimate wisdom to do something that I was half interested in to put my basic clunky Excel VBA skills to good practice. I found an internet resource that listed every single English professional league table in 1889 to last year, pulled all that data and did a little program to take every teams results and place them in a definitive order based on end positions and division through the years.

I presume its no surprise to find Liverpool are the top team, I was a little taken aback our cousins down the road don't appear in the top 10, I assuming I have an error somewhere. Anyway, league table historic top 10.

Rank TEAM RATING
1 Liverpool 7788
2 Arsenal 7726
3 Everton 7631
4 Manchester United 7525
5 Aston Villa 7373
6 Manchester City 7159
7 Newcastle United 7073
8 Tottenham Hotspur 6990
9 Chelsea 6935
10 Sunderland 6834

I have to go down to 38 for our cousins, who group with (5 up and down)

33 Coventry City 4652
34 Ipswich Town 4630
35 Blackpool 4534
36 Queens Park Rangers 4456
37 Crystal Palace 4343
38 Cardiff City 4207
39 Bristol City 4060
40 Hull City 3882
41 Barnsley 3828
42 Watford 3812
43 Luton Town 3761

Unfortunately our years in the 3 and 4th levels have done for us. Lucky we don't say we're giants of any kind.

43 Luton Town 3761
44 Millwall 3726
45 Notts County 3665
46 Oldham Athletic 3575
47 Bury 3470
48 Swansea City 3447
49 Brighton & Hove Albion 3423
50 Reading 3353
51 Plymouth Argyle 3278
52 Grimsby Town 3269
53 Bradford City 3036

Who's at the bottom I hear you ask (well nobodies really bothered I assume)

140 Rotherham Town 9
141 Northwich Victoria 7
142 Bootle 5
143 Middlesbrough Ironopolis 5
144 Thames 4

 

[Ringwood Jack]

Brighton shouldn't be that low ... i put us on a par with Plymouth and Hull for a port City with similar fan bases and volatile history of sorts !

 

[ABSwan]

To expand on why Cardiff are higher than us, well its more to do with their roaring success in the 1920's.

Looking at a bit of detail, both Cardiff and Swansea have played 93 full seasons in the Football league. Where Cardiff have had 17 seasons in the top division (mainly 1920's) we have only had 9, in the second tier they have had 47 seasons to our 39.

I must admit I was surprised though, as recently some wag on Anus's board suggested they were a similar size to Everton.

Rank TEAM RATING
1 Liverpool 7788
2 Arsenal 7726
3 Everton 7631
4 Manchester United 7525
5 Aston Villa 7373

Yes, that Everton.

True, Everton have a few more years over both Cardiff and Swansea, 121 to our 93, seeing as they were part of the very first season. Looking at their record 117 seasons in the top tier compared to Cardiff's 17 and 4 in the second tier compared to Cardiff's 47, I can only assume their record in the lower two tiers where Cardiff have spent 29 seasons is worse, oh hang on, Everton have never played below the second tier and the last time they were there was 1954.

I'm of the opinion the person on Anus's board actually mistook Everton for, erm.... Barnsley. Are Barnsley called the Toffee's too??

 

[ABSwan]

Brighton shouldn't be that low ... i put us on a par with Plymouth and Hull for a port City with similar fan bases and volatile history of sorts !

Its all very basic my calc, each team got a points based on where they finished in the pyramid, very simple, 92 league teams, top of Div 1 gets 92 points, bottom of Div 4 gets 1.

In 1889 there were only 22 teams in one division, so top got 22 points.

 

[ABSwan]

The full list (if it fits)

Rank TEAM RATING
1 Liverpool 7788
2 Arsenal 7726
3 Everton 7631
4 Manchester United 7525
5 Aston Villa 7373
6 Manchester City 7159
7 Newcastle United 7073
8 Tottenham Hotspur 6990
9 Chelsea 6935
10 Sunderland 6834
11 West Bromwich Albion 6658
12 Blackburn Rovers 6389
13 Derby County 6342
14 Wolverhampton Wanderers 6313
15 Sheffield Wednesday 6228
16 Middlesbrough 6208
17 West Ham United 6162
18 Sheffield United 6141
19 Bolton Wanderers 6138
20 Leicester City 6128
21 Birmingham City 6060
22 Leeds United 6034
23 Nottingham Forest 6031
24 Stoke City 5937
25 Burnley 5618
26 Southampton 5519
27 Preston North End 5170
28 Fulham 4869
29 Portsmouth 4847
30 Huddersfield Town 4809
31 Charlton Athletic 4807
32 Norwich City 4690
33 Coventry City 4652
34 Ipswich Town 4630
35 Blackpool 4534
36 Queens Park Rangers 4456
37 Crystal Palace 4343
38 Cardiff City 4207
39 Bristol City 4060
40 Hull City 3882
41 Barnsley 3828
42 Watford 3812
43 Luton Town 3761
44 Millwall 3726
45 Notts County 3665
46 Oldham Athletic 3575
47 Bury 3470
48 Swansea City 3447
49 Brighton & Hove Albion 3423
50 Reading 3353
51 Plymouth Argyle 3278
52 Grimsby Town 3269
53 Bradford City 3036
54 Brentford 2991
55 Rotherham United 2953
56 Swindon Town 2909
57 Bristol Rovers 2751
58 Port Vale 2744
59 Leyton Orient 2725
60 Bournemouth 2704
61 Walsall 2460
62 Tranmere Rovers 2310
63 Chesterfield 2255
64 Southend United 2181
65 Oxford United 2134
66 Carlisle United 2122
67 Gillingham 2113
68 Shrewsbury Town 2026
69 Doncaster Rovers 1966
70 Wigan Athletic 1903
71 Stockport County 1780
72 Peterborough United 1778
73 Lincoln City 1774
74 Northampton Town 1767
75 Wimbledon 1727
76 Wrexham 1719
77 Crewe Alexandra 1707
78 Colchester United 1677
79 Scunthorpe United 1673
80 Mansfield Town 1460
81 Rochdale 1272
82 Exeter City 1250
83 York City 1209
84 Hartlepool United 1126
85 Torquay United 1083
86 Bradford Park Avenue 1065
87 Cambridge United 1060
88 Chester City 1044
89 Darlington 931
90 Newport County 898
91 Halifax Town 864
92 Wycombe Wanderers 685
93 Aldershot 639
94 Southport 591
95 Milton Keynes Dons 564
96 Accrington Stanley 558
97 Hereford United 451
98 Barrow 423
99 Yeovil Town 420
100 Workington 329
101 Burton Albion 317
102 Cheltenham Town 314
103 Gateshead 314
104 South Shields 294
105 Fleetwood Town 263
106 Barnet 217
107 Stevenage 185
108 Crawley Town 163
109 Macclesfield Town 160
110 New Brighton 153
111 Afc Wimbledon 141
112 Glossop North End 139
113 Scarborough 123
114 Nelson 121
115 Morecambe 118
116 Gainsborough Trinity 108
117 Dagenham & Redbridge 106
118 Wigan Borough 100
119 Leeds City 98
120 Rushden & Diamonds 74
121 Ashington 72
122 Burton United 72
123 Merthyr Town 65
124 Darwen 56
125 Aldershot Town 55
126 Boston United 49
127 Kidderminster Harriers 49
128 Aberdare Athletic 48
129 Durham City 48
130 Newton Heath 43
131 Forest Green Rovers 39
132 New Brighton Tower 38
133 Accrington 34
134 Maidstone United 31
135 Stalybridge Celtic 28
136 Burton Wanderers 25
137 Scunthorpe Town 23
138 Salford City 14
139 Loughborough 13
140 Rotherham Town 9
141 Northwich Victoria 7
142 Bootle 5
143 Middlesbrough Ironopolis 5
144 Thames 4


I was surprised that Boston only had 5 seasons in the league, same as Rushden and Diamonds.

 

[Trampie]

Swans are 28th on the All Time Premier League list.

 

[ABSwan]

Swans are 28th on the All Time Premier League list.

Be interesting to see how many teams have played in total in the Premier League, I plan to adapt my little scripts to allow putting start and end years for comparisons.

Actually just did a quick filter, 49 teams have played in the Premier League

Arsenal
Aston Villa
Barnsley
Birmingham City
Blackburn Rovers
Blackpool
Bolton Wanderers
Bournemouth
Bradford City
Brighton & Hove Albion
Burnley
Cardiff City
Charlton Athletic
Chelsea
Coventry City
Crystal Palace
Derby County
Everton
Fulham
Huddersfield Town
Hull City
Ipswich Town
Leeds United
Leicester City
Liverpool
Manchester City
Manchester United
Middlesbrough
Newcastle United
Norwich City
Nottingham Forest
Oldham Athletic
Portsmouth
Queens Park Rangers
Reading
Sheffield United
Sheffield Wednesday
Southampton
Stoke City
Sunderland
Swansea City
Swindon Town
Tottenham Hotspur
Watford
West Bromwich Albion
West Ham United
Wigan Athletic
Wimbledon
Wolverhampton Wanderers

 

[ABSwan]

Brighton shouldn't be that low ... i put us on a par with Plymouth and Hull for a port City with similar fan bases and volatile history of sorts !

Brighton like Swansea have spent 93 years in the League. Only 7 of which have been in the top tier, 24 in the second tier, 55 in the third and only 7 in the fourth tier.

 

[Darran]

Great thread. Very interesting reading.

 

[JackSomething]

Surprised to see Sunderland in the top 10. Above clubs who I think of having richer histories like West Ham, Leeds and Southampton.

Be interesting if there was a way to introduce recency bias to the results. Make recent seasons worth more than 100 years ago somehow.

 

[ABSwan]

Surprised to see Sunderland in the top 10. Above clubs who I think of having richer histories like West Ham, Leeds and Southampton.

Be interesting if there was a way to introduce recency bias to the results. Make recent seasons worth more than 100 years ago somehow.

That's what I'm thinking to put in, create a table based on the last 50 years for example, make the time period a variable I input. Another thing I'm thinking is between a start and end year to see the best teams over a specific period.

All good for practicing coding :

 

[ABSwan]

Surprised to see Sunderland in the top 10. Above clubs who I think of having richer histories like West Ham, Leeds and Southampton.

Be interesting if there was a way to introduce recency bias to the results. Make recent seasons worth more than 100 years ago somehow.

To put in perspective, Sunderland have won the League 6 times (the last time 1936, 3 times in the 19thC). Leeds have won 3. West Ham and Southampton have never won it.

Sunderland have 119 seasons under their belt, West Ham 94 Leeds and Southampton two 93. Of those Sunderland have 86 seasons in the top division, West Ham 62, Leeds 50 and Southampton only 43. Sunderland have 30 in the second tier, Leeds 40,the others between.

West Ham's the only one to have never dropped into the 3rd tier, Southampton at 11 have the most seasons at that level. None of them have played in the 4th tier.

 

[Jajes]

Could you do the same statistic - but only include second half scores?

 

[Glyn1]

Thanks ABSwan, you certainly don't waste your evenings!

I think that there's a Wikipedia article somewhere that ranks all teams who have been in the Premier League, and we're just under halfway up the table, which is pretty good considering our meagre resources.

UPDATE: Here it is, near the bottom of the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_records_and_statistics#All-time_Premier_League_table

We achieved 312 points in the Premier League compared to Cardiff's 64 points. Weirdly, both clubs have the same negative goal difference (minus 77) but it took 7 seasons for Swansea to reach that whereas Cardiff managed it in just 2!

 

[Bridgendjack]

Could you do the same statistic - but only include second half scores?

Love it..