Labour

[Londonlisa2001]

I'm sorry, but I have to fundamentally disagree with just about everything you've said there.

In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't keep going through these elections voting for anyone to keep the Tory out. and that is precisely what I hope a huge percentage of the electorate will do next time.

However, it is clear the political landscape has changed over the past couple of decades and the rise of the SNP taking getting on for 40 formerly Labour seats North of the border has probably ensured that Labour will never again be able to get an overall majority but provided the Tories don't, then change to the electoral system can and must happen. It will take Labour to realise their days with an overall majority in the house have gone but if they do and Labour, SNP & Lib Dems and others significantly outnumber the Tories in Westminster, the next step has to be to replace FPTP with PR and drag the UK up from its current archaic system of misgovernment to something approaching that of Sweden and many other progressive societies.

So, when you say Change won't happen overnight, but it'll never happen if we keep voting for anyone but Tory., I 100% disagree with the 2nd part of that sentence because, at the moment, I can't see any other process that can put us on the route to electoral change in this country.

The only way Wales will get the government it wants and never a Tory one is through independence. Otherwise it’ll be the same old s**t every few years.

In other news, Starmer has worked out what a woman is. Pathetic attempt to bury bad news

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jul/27/starmer-calls-for-a-bank-holiday-if-england-win-womens-euro-2022-final?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2CamB1QaYRfi8_dkt1nM3sul-gOhQC34NVymnveQuQiLsKElm53X85rqM#Echobox=1658994083

How on Earth does that article have anything to do with Starmer ‘knowing what a woman is’?

The problem is Ebo that people with your views are exactly why we have Johnson and will shortly have Truss. ‘If we can’t have Corbyn we want to burn the country’. It’s absolutely pathetic, it really is.

Momentum have lost control of the Labour Party, and are chucking their toys out of the pram and attempting to undermine Starmer at every single turn.

If you are a supporter, or even a rank and file member, believe what you want and support what you want. But if you are a front bencher, and the leader of the party (who has been elected by that party btw) says not to do something, you don’t bloody do it. If you feel strongly that it’s wrong, you resign from your position and give something up yourself rather than undermine the leader. It’s exactly the sort of ill-disciplined, self serving ‘me, me, me’ petulant nonsense that defines the hard left of the party and has led to successive Tory governments.
Starmer was forced to sack him - it was exactly what Sam Tarry was looking for. As he’s been roundly criticised by his local party for being sodding useless (plus other allegations) and this gives him some sort of National standing.

He’s not doing it in ‘solidarity’ he’s doing it to try to rescue his career. The very behaviour that the ‘far left’ say they despise. And he hasn’t been sacked for standing on a picket line, he’s been sacked for throwing his leader, his colleagues and his party under a bus to save his own skin and for making up policy on the hoof.

On the subject of the strikes themselves, I have mixed views. I completely support the safety aspects of the issue. It’s really a front for pay though. And they get paid a lot. There are other public sector workers who are far more badly treated than them and they’ve now been prevented from getting to their work on a few occasions. It’s not quite as simple as ‘rail companies make x therefore staff need a rise’. The rail companies also take the risk, not the staff. The whole system is a shambles and needs overhauling. You can’t have part of it nationalised and part privatised and all sorts of private companies involved. I would personally have the whole lot in state ownership run by a somewhat independent and devolved authority so it doesn’t become yet another party political pawn but which recognises the importance of the rail infrastructure to our economy. We could also then have sensible price structures not the unbelievable rip offs that we have now.

But that’s a separate matter. Ebo. If you genuinely think Starmer is the same as Truss you shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a polling booth.

 

[Londonlisa2001]

Btw. The one person who does need to be kicked out of the Labour Party and publicly disowned is that utter misogynist Owen Jones. His display in the last 24 hours has been even more vile than normal. Both over the Starmer matter and over the Allison Bailey case.

And mocking ‘Waitrose shoppers’ from your expensive London flat with your wall mounted Sonos speakers behind your head makes you look like a complete prat.

 

[Professor]

Btw. The one person who does need to be kicked out of the Labour Party and publicly disowned is that utter misogynist Owen Jones. His display in the last 24 hours has been even more vile than normal. Both over the Starmer matter and over the Allison Bailey case.

And mocking ‘Waitrose shoppers’ from your expensive London flat with your wall mounted Sonos speakers behind your head makes you look like a complete prat.

Especially since Waitrose is essence part of a worker's cooperative and not share holder owned.


Owen Jones is a great advert for Truss.

Unfortunately whilst Corbyn had some good policies, he is forever tainted as a terrorist sympathiser by many and there was an overwhelming belief that he was only an urban leftie-which bears out in terms of where Labour won seats. And don't get me started on the anti-semitism.

 

[Londonlisa2001]

Btw. The one person who does need to be kicked out of the Labour Party and publicly disowned is that utter misogynist Owen Jones. His display in the last 24 hours has been even more vile than normal. Both over the Starmer matter and over the Allison Bailey case.

And mocking ‘Waitrose shoppers’ from your expensive London flat with your wall mounted Sonos speakers behind your head makes you look like a complete prat.

Especially since Waitrose is essence part of a worker's cooperative and not share holder owned.


Owen Jones is a great advert for Truss.

Unfortunately whilst Corbyn had some good policies, he is forever tainted as a terrorist sympathiser by many and there was an overwhelming belief that he was only an urban leftie-which bears out in terms of where Labour won seats. And don't get me started on the anti-semitism.

Plus I would guarantee that Owen Jones has, from time to time, shopped in Waitrose as they are all over London including train stations.

I think I’ve said before that when I was in my twenties, I was friends with quite a few of the ex UCL Labour lot who effectively ran Islington politics. Corbyn was just an amiable front man for such groups. An idealist who would support any trendy student politics cause currently fashionable. No harm as such, but also not a practical choice for running an actual country. One of my friends of that time became a Corbyn policy advisor while he was leader. One of them went on to lead some sort of communist party. Bunch of middle class nutjobs really. All qualified as lawyers and similar and comfortably off but fist in the air and thought they were leading some sort of revolution against the establishment of which they are now firmly part. They were always bleating on about ‘workers’ but the only time they ever mixed with the ‘working class’ they were so enamoured of was when they went to see Arsenal (they were all massive Arsenal fans - I used to go to Highbury quite frequently and, in fairness, they all came with me to watch the Swans play at Orient one day (they’d have been the bunch of poshos on the old away bank behind the goal at Orient). Nice people but away with the fairies really.
You couldn’t have them anywhere near real power.

 

[AceJack]

Imagine getting lectured on being too middle class by the faction that brought us this outstanding piece of nepotism

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6815579/amp/A-50million-portrait-hypocrisy-Corbyns-aides-family-sold-Picasso-got-1-3m-home.html

 

[Professor]

Especially since Waitrose is essence part of a worker's cooperative and not share holder owned.


Owen Jones is a great advert for Truss.

Unfortunately whilst Corbyn had some good policies, he is forever tainted as a terrorist sympathiser by many and there was an overwhelming belief that he was only an urban leftie-which bears out in terms of where Labour won seats. And don't get me started on the anti-semitism.

Plus I would guarantee that Owen Jones has, from time to time, shopped in Waitrose as they are all over London including train stations.

I think I’ve said before that when I was in my twenties, I was friends with quite a few of the ex UCL Labour lot who effectively ran Islington politics. Corbyn was just an amiable front man for such groups. An idealist who would support any trendy student politics cause currently fashionable. No harm as such, but also not a practical choice for running an actual country. One of my friends of that time became a Corbyn policy advisor while he was leader. One of them went on to lead some sort of communist party. Bunch of middle class nutjobs really. All qualified as lawyers and similar and comfortably off but fist in the air and thought they were leading some sort of revolution against the establishment of which they are now firmly part. They were always bleating on about ‘workers’ but the only time they ever mixed with the ‘working class’ they were so enamoured of was when they went to see Arsenal (they were all massive Arsenal fans - I used to go to Highbury quite frequently and, in fairness, they all came with me to watch the Swans play at Orient one day (they’d have been the bunch of poshos on the old away bank behind the goal at Orient). Nice people but away with the fairies really.
You couldn’t have them anywhere near real power.

Even my local petrol station is a Waitrose. Big one in Chester.

I could, as a King's Graduate, make a UCL comment bit won't. Ungodly as they are.

What has struck me visiting Stoke and Newcastle Under Lyme since my daughter started at Keele, is that these are extremely run down towns that voted Tory. Unlike Liverpool not has masses of EU money . But people are aspirational. They want a Merc and designer clothes. They could not see what labour were offering. Whilst partly this is down to media and the usual scare stories, Johnson was offering this. Now he had little intention of truly delivering IMO, but there are improvements being made and flagged very much as UK Government. Now, one could argue this was the bribe, but its these folk that Labour have to capture the votes of. Not Labour members like Ace and me, or Brother Ebo. The urban left will not do that. And as unpalatable as it may seem, Starmer's actions over Tarry will be seen as decisive leadership to many.

 

[waynekerr55]

Btw. The one person who does need to be kicked out of the Labour Party and publicly disowned is that utter misogynist Owen Jones. His display in the last 24 hours has been even more vile than normal. Both over the Starmer matter and over the Allison Bailey case.

And mocking ‘Waitrose shoppers’ from your expensive London flat with your wall mounted Sonos speakers behind your head makes you look like a complete prat.

Darren was spot on when he called Jones out for what he is, a divisive, pathetic husk of a "man". A total waste of oxygen.

 

[Longlostjack]

Even Zarah Sultana had a dig and she is one of the decent ones left

https://twitter.com/zarahsultana/status/1552264638154383361?s=20&t=7nHOW9xvh0Fb4Z4hejbYrQ

An antisemite who’s come straight out of student politics and into Parliament, nearly throwing away a safe labour seat in the process?

If she’s the future of the hard left, you’re toast

You're raisin a good point there.

 

[monmouth]

Especially since Waitrose is essence part of a worker's cooperative and not share holder owned.


Owen Jones is a great advert for Truss.

Unfortunately whilst Corbyn had some good policies, he is forever tainted as a terrorist sympathiser by many and there was an overwhelming belief that he was only an urban leftie-which bears out in terms of where Labour won seats. And don't get me started on the anti-semitism.

Plus I would guarantee that Owen Jones has, from time to time, shopped in Waitrose as they are all over London including train stations.

I think I’ve said before that when I was in my twenties, I was friends with quite a few of the ex UCL Labour lot who effectively ran Islington politics. Corbyn was just an amiable front man for such groups. An idealist who would support any trendy student politics cause currently fashionable. No harm as such, but also not a practical choice for running an actual country. One of my friends of that time became a Corbyn policy advisor while he was leader. One of them went on to lead some sort of communist party. Bunch of middle class nutjobs really. All qualified as lawyers and similar and comfortably off but fist in the air and thought they were leading some sort of revolution against the establishment of which they are now firmly part. They were always bleating on about ‘workers’ but the only time they ever mixed with the ‘working class’ they were so enamoured of was when they went to see Arsenal (they were all massive Arsenal fans - I used to go to Highbury quite frequently and, in fairness, they all came with me to watch the Swans play at Orient one day (they’d have been the bunch of poshos on the old away bank behind the goal at Orient). Nice people but away with the fairies really.
You couldn’t have them anywhere near real power.

That wasn't when we lost 4-2 in around 84 or 85 was it? I remember thinking at the time that there were some strange folk there . That would explain it.

 

[Londonlisa2001]

Plus I would guarantee that Owen Jones has, from time to time, shopped in Waitrose as they are all over London including train stations.

I think I’ve said before that when I was in my twenties, I was friends with quite a few of the ex UCL Labour lot who effectively ran Islington politics. Corbyn was just an amiable front man for such groups. An idealist who would support any trendy student politics cause currently fashionable. No harm as such, but also not a practical choice for running an actual country. One of my friends of that time became a Corbyn policy advisor while he was leader. One of them went on to lead some sort of communist party. Bunch of middle class nutjobs really. All qualified as lawyers and similar and comfortably off but fist in the air and thought they were leading some sort of revolution against the establishment of which they are now firmly part. They were always bleating on about ‘workers’ but the only time they ever mixed with the ‘working class’ they were so enamoured of was when they went to see Arsenal (they were all massive Arsenal fans - I used to go to Highbury quite frequently and, in fairness, they all came with me to watch the Swans play at Orient one day (they’d have been the bunch of poshos on the old away bank behind the goal at Orient). Nice people but away with the fairies really.
You couldn’t have them anywhere near real power.

That wasn't when we lost 4-2 in around 84 or 85 was it? I remember thinking at the time that there were some strange folk there . That would explain it.

Lol. No, it was around 1992 ish I think. And I think we won. In fact, I’m certain we won. I remember my mates all bouncing around singing along with the Swans fans. Although can’t remember when exactly it was or what the score was.

 

[Neath_Jack]

We can't keep going through these elections like that, voting for anyone to keep to Tory lot out. It needs change, needs a charismatic communicator, why can't the Greens or the Lib Dems take that mantle. The voting system isn't going to change, it will always favour the two big lot. Change won't happen overnight, but it'll never happen if we keep voting for anyone but Tory. I'll never vote for Kinnock, ever.

I'm sorry, but I have to fundamentally disagree with just about everything you've said there.

In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't keep going through these elections voting for anyone to keep the Tory out. and that is precisely what I hope a huge percentage of the electorate will do next time.

However, it is clear the political landscape has changed over the past couple of decades and the rise of the SNP taking getting on for 40 formerly Labour seats North of the border has probably ensured that Labour will never again be able to get an overall majority but provided the Tories don't, then change to the electoral system can and must happen. It will take Labour to realise their days with an overall majority in the house have gone but if they do and Labour, SNP & Lib Dems and others significantly outnumber the Tories in Westminster, the next step has to be to replace FPTP with PR and drag the UK up from its current archaic system of misgovernment to something approaching that of Sweden and many other progressive societies.

So, when you say Change won't happen overnight, but it'll never happen if we keep voting for anyone but Tory., I 100% disagree with the 2nd part of that sentence because, at the moment, I can't see any other process that can put us on the route to electoral change in this country.

No need to apologise, nobody has a clue how we get out of this mess, no matter how much they pontificate.

What i do know though, if we keep doing what we have always done, then we will keep getting the same results. They said we would never get rid of the Labour council in Neath, "no chance, you could pin a red rosette on a dog and it would get in". Oh how they cried when out they went!

#UppaIndependents

 

[exiledclaseboy]

If more people voted differently locally than they do nationally, taking into account local issues, I think many councils would be in a better state. I’d think twice about voting to remove Neath’s Labour MP though as you’ll either be handing a seat to the Tories or at the very least depriving Labour of one. That’s another symptom of our fucked up electoral system I’m afraid. I’ve no enthusiasm for my local Labour MP at all but I’ll vote for her again in a general election for those reasons.

We can't keep going through these elections like that, voting for anyone to keep to Tory lot out. It needs change, needs a charismatic communicator, why can't the Greens or the Lib Dems take that mantle. The voting system isn't going to change, it will always favour the two big lot. Change won't happen overnight, but it'll never happen if we keep voting for anyone but Tory. I'll never vote for Kinnock, ever.

You won’t change anything by voting for anyone other than Labour in a constituency like Aberafan. And even if you did manage to unseat Kinnock all that would achieve is another Tory seat. Even if you managed to get a Green or Plaid MP elected, almost an impossibility in most South Wales seats under FPTP, you’ve deprived Labour of a seat and they’re the only party who can form a government other than the Tories so all it achieves is to make another Tory government more likely. I’d absolutely vote for the candidate best placed to keep the Tories out in my constituency whether that’s Labour, Plaid or Green. FPTP is the problem and that’s far more likely to change than any attempt, however well intentioned, to keep the Tories out by voting for anyone other than Labour in seats like ours.