Simon Pegg lays into Rishi

[Neath_Jack]

Education is devolved in Wales so what Rishi says about Maths doesn't necessarily apply to us.
Some points about Schools in Wales delivering a more bespoke and interesting curriculum made here are happening. For example, there are schools now that teach pupils construction skills, such as bricklaying, carpentry and electrics.

A lot of schools in and around Swansea / Neath do now offer construction skills lessons, I agree. First started noticing it on their CV's a couple of years before covid arrived.

 

[J_B]

Some of the comments on this thread don't add up...

 

[Cooperman]

I should probably weigh in on this - I teach Maths at a University and the wife is a head of maths at a secondary school. Maths is so stigmatised as a subject...there's always a bit of a strange competition to say how much one hates it, I guess it's the same as many subjects but maths is always picked on the most for some reason.

It's true that the mathematical ability of our population is waning, especially when you compare to countries in Asia, for example. I'm a bit conflicted regarding having to do maths to the age of 18...I can understand why one would not want to do that, but I think it would benefit us as a population, on the whole. I think people probably have a bit of a stereotypical view of what much of secondary school maths is like these days. It isn't simply a teacher doing endless Trigonometry questions on a white board (or black board if you're old enough!). There is a lot of real-world problem solving involved and this can only benefit young people growing up. If they could further develop the syllabus to include maths applied to (e.g.) finance, engineering and computing...I would support making people study maths up to the age of 18.

I have to deal with the whole 'when are we ever going to use this' thing every year...I'm kind of lucky in that respect as by the time students have got to me, they generally know what they want to do as a career and know that maths is important to them. The way I like to look at it when pushing students into various branches of maths, is that it's a bit like having a watch that is water/pressure proof up to 1000m depth. You may never swim that deep, but it's nice to know that you'll be safe if you drop it in the bath. They may never do the maths as complex as we teach at University when they actually get in to industry, but they'll be confident that they'll be able to cope with pretty much any calculation that does arise.

Personally I love all of the 'boring' pure calculus, trigonometry, complex analysis stuff, but I can understand how 'forcing' people to do that up to the age of 18 may well push people away from the stuff. From a selfish point of view it would probably help me in my job, especially on foundation degrees, but I think that they really need put across the applications of maths to turn young people on to it.

Good post, Mr Swerve. There would clearly be a need for syllabus change if Sunak was to press ahead with his proposal. I did A-level maths and my son is now doing it nearly thirty years later; there isn’t that much difference in what is being taught and the content is unsuitable for anyone who has no desire to apply it within a career.

He’s also doing business studies at A-level, and whilst maths is delivering the curriculum that I expected, business studies on the other hand is not. I expected much greater emphasis on finance and accounting principles (at least based on how he has explained it to me).

Bottom line, the current age of 16 for mandatory study is perfectly fine. Those who want more pure maths can continue to A-level. It’s some of the other subject areas where I feel the gaps are; Neath_Jack has touched on this, and I also make the point re business studies.

 

[Cooperman]

Some of the comments on this thread don't add up...

It’s gonna divide opinion, for sure.

 

[MrSwerve]

I don't think anyone has any issue with pupils choosing to go on and do all that extra maths, even up to the age of 18, its the forcing of certain types of maths on us mere plebs when we have zero interest in it that is the problem for me.

You teacher bods are bound to be in favour of more and more maths, as that is your passion after all.

I think you’re kind of proving what I’m trying to put across…it’s not about ‘plebs’, to use your word, doing maths. It’s about people developing their problem solving and analytical part of their brain. As I said, it’s not (or at least shouldn’t be) about doing Trigonometry until the age of 18. We all use ‘maths’, in some guise, every day. Young people are growing up with an inability to do things such as budgeting, tax calculations…even percentages, decimal points, etc., as the Prof alluded to. You don’t need to have aspirations of being a Physicist to have to know these things for important life decisions.

I’m not in favour of maths for the sake of it (well, I think it would be great for people to have a better understanding of maths in general, it is the most important language in the world…but I know that it is not practical)…but I am in favour of ‘useful’ maths that people will apply in everyday life…at the very least.

Unfortunately the age of brickies and greasy car mechanics is coming to an end. Look at the houses now being 3D printed. Try taking a Tesla to a small independent garage run by a 60 year old mechanic with a belt of spanners. Being more analytical-minded is what the world will need at an increasing rate over the next 10-20 years. That’s not to say that we don’t need the arts, either, that is still an extremely important thing to me.

 

[Jackfath]

Most decent schools will be teaching their students 3d printing and the skills useful in construction.

There's room for both in a modern, balanced curriculum.

 

[Neath_Jack]

I think you’re kind of proving what I’m trying to put across…it’s not about ‘plebs’, to use your word, doing maths. It’s about people developing their problem solving and analytical part of their brain. As I said, it’s not (or at least shouldn’t be) about doing Trigonometry until the age of 18. We all use ‘maths’, in some guise, every day. Young people are growing up with an inability to do things such as budgeting, tax calculations…even percentages, decimal points, etc., as the Prof alluded to. You don’t need to have aspirations of being a Physicist to have to know these things for important life decisions.

I’m not in favour of maths for the sake of it (well, I think it would be great for people to have a better understanding of maths in general, it is the most important language in the world…but I know that it is not practical)…but I am in favour of ‘useful’ maths that people will apply in everyday life…at the very least.

Unfortunately the age of brickies and greasy car mechanics is coming to an end. Look at the houses now being 3D printed. Try taking a Tesla to a small independent garage run by a 60 year old mechanic with a belt of spanners. Being more analytical-minded is what the world will need at an increasing rate over the next 10-20 years. That’s not to say that we don’t need the arts, either, that is still an extremely important thing to me.

Brickies and car mechanics will be around for many generation yet.

As i said, you are a maths teacher so you are passionate about it, ergo a very biased opinion of the subject and academia.

I left school with god knows what grade in maths, possibly an E or F, I'd imagine. I work with people who have fancy degrees in all manner of subjects and levels, I also work with many dyslexic people who are some of the finest craftsmen i know. I cannot work out tax calculations, I have to use a calculator for fairly simple tasks. There are millions of others just like me. The world needs all kinds.

Along the same lines as you saying working out calculations, budgeting etc, is all done simply on a computer or even mobile phone now, so even less need for forced mathematics than ever before. In my humble opinion.

 

[waynekerr55]

I think you’re kind of proving what I’m trying to put across…it’s not about ‘plebs’, to use your word, doing maths. It’s about people developing their problem solving and analytical part of their brain. As I said, it’s not (or at least shouldn’t be) about doing Trigonometry until the age of 18. We all use ‘maths’, in some guise, every day. Young people are growing up with an inability to do things such as budgeting, tax calculations…even percentages, decimal points, etc., as the Prof alluded to. You don’t need to have aspirations of being a Physicist to have to know these things for important life decisions.

I’m not in favour of maths for the sake of it (well, I think it would be great for people to have a better understanding of maths in general, it is the most important language in the world…but I know that it is not practical)…but I am in favour of ‘useful’ maths that people will apply in everyday life…at the very least.

Unfortunately the age of brickies and greasy car mechanics is coming to an end. Look at the houses now being 3D printed. Try taking a Tesla to a small independent garage run by a 60 year old mechanic with a belt of spanners. Being more analytical-minded is what the world will need at an increasing rate over the next 10-20 years. That’s not to say that we don’t need the arts, either, that is still an extremely important thing to me.

There was a great tweet online that said if we taught economics nobody would vote Tory. This is yet another example of political interference in something that should be apolitical

 

[DJack]

Education is devolved in Wales so what Rishi says about Maths doesn't necessarily apply to us.
Some points about Schools in Wales delivering a more bespoke and interesting curriculum made here are happening. For example, there are schools now that teach pupils construction skills, such as bricklaying, carpentry and electrics.

Thanks for that info, Fathy.

 

[DJack]

Some of the comments on this thread don't add up...

Thanks for your addition...

 

[WxmJax]

Maths or math ? That divides opinion.

It's maths, by the way.

 

[jack_lord]

I just cannot see how Maths can be made compulsory beyond 16. It is difficult enough for those who do not have the analytical mind to deal with more complex mathematical equations so to force students who have no passion for this subject to study at an advanced level makes no sense.

 

[MrSwerve]

Maths or math ? That divides opinion.

It's maths, by the way.

That's the important question in this thread - I've held off any comment on it. :lol:

It's 'maths'. I threaten to throw anyone out of my lecture theatre if they say otherwise (jokingly, obviously!).

 

[MrSwerve]

Brickies and car mechanics will be around for many generation yet.

As i said, you are a maths teacher so you are passionate about it, ergo a very biased opinion of the subject and academia.

I left school with god knows what grade in maths, possibly an E or F, I'd imagine. I work with people who have fancy degrees in all manner of subjects and levels, I also work with many dyslexic people who are some of the finest craftsmen i know. I cannot work out tax calculations, I have to use a calculator for fairly simple tasks. There are millions of others just like me. The world needs all kinds.

Along the same lines as you saying working out calculations, budgeting etc, is all done simply on a computer or even mobile phone now, so even less need for forced mathematics than ever before. In my humble opinion.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm conflicted on this myself...even from my somewhat biased position. I see plenty of students every year that I think would be far better suited in some kind of apprenticeship rather than struggling through the academic stuff only to fail a year or two in to a degree. We're pushing degree apprenticeships quite heavily now and the numbers are increasing...it looks like it's the way forward particularly in Engineering.

I just think that there will be a switch to a need for more people to be analytically-minded. It may not be now, but it'll certainly be sometime within the next 15-30 years. I can understand people at the moment saying 'well, I didn't need it'...but that is not the future. I think most people here are 50+, times have changed and are changing quite rapidly at the moment.

Of course, there'll always be a need for the arts, there'll always be a need for things that are less analytical, but the job opportunities for those will shrink drastically in the next 50+ years. The education of young people will have to adjust accordingly. Maths teachers in secondary schools are dealing with very real changes in syllabi to deal with making maths more applicable and useful to more and more people, rather than the typical equation-solving geeks.

 

[Pentyrchjack]

So does Laura…it’s obvious to everyone that he has a private GP and it shows the naïveté of Sunak to think he can convincingly dodge the question.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64202855