Simon Pegg lays into Rishi

[Darran]

I’m just happy I can count to 10.

 

[Darran]

:lol:

https://twitter.com/dulcet_panacea/status/1611081642373795840?s=61&t=5EIGAhE4srZyjWUHFE-kkA

 

[Professor]

Going to disagree-Sunak is right that mathematical skills are far too weak in the UK now-god knows the number of students I have had who can't understand percentages, logarithmic scales, data distribution or unit conversion. I use maths hugely from calculations of concentrations, viable counts, gene expression analysis through to the complex genomics stuff you see on TV. Most analysis can be done by computer but understanding the principles is key.

Secondary to that is that media and opinion is always full of arts and humanities graduates. I have said many times that education needs reform-for many it needs to be more applied and vocational for others it needs some broadening. Science is useless without context or understanding of social impacts. If you are studying sciences post 16 some exposure to arts and social sciences is useful and vice versa. Need not even be assessed by an exam.

 

[Professor]

Going to disagree-Sunak is right that mathematical skills are far too weak in the UK now-god knows the number of students I have had who can't understand percentages, logarithmic scales, data distribution or unit conversion. I use maths hugely from calculations of concentrations, viable counts, gene expression analysis through to the complex genomics stuff you see on TV. Most analysis can be done by computer but understanding the principles is key.

Secondary to that is that media and opinion is always full of arts and humanities graduates. I have said many times that education needs reform-for many it needs to be more applied and vocational for others it needs some broadening. Science is useless without context or understanding of social impacts. If you are studying sciences post 16 some exposure to arts and social sciences is useful and vice versa. Need not even be assessed by an exam.

 

[Professor]

Going to disagree-Sunak is right that mathematical skills are far too weak in the UK now-god knows the number of students I have had who can't understand percentages, logarithmic scales, data distribution or unit conversion. I use maths hugely from calculations of concentrations, viable counts, gene expression analysis through to the complex genomics stuff you see on TV. Most analysis can be done by computer but understanding the principles is key.

Secondary to that is that media and opinion is always full of arts and humanities graduates. I have said many times that education needs reform-for many it needs to be more applied and vocational for others it needs some broadening. Science is useless without context or understanding of social impacts. If you are studying sciences post 16 some exposure to arts and social sciences is useful and vice versa. Need not even be assessed by an exam.

In fact- the whole point is encapsulated in Darran's comment about counting to ten (yes Dar, I know it's a joke). It's socially acceptable to have poor numeracy, but somewhat different with reading and writing.

 

[sainthelens]

:lol:

https://twitter.com/dulcet_panacea/status/1611081642373795840?s=61&t=5EIGAhE4srZyjWUHFE-kkA

:lol: :lol:

 

[J_B]

If only Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng had a Junior school level of numeracy maybe we wouldn’t be in quite as deep shit as we are in this country.

 

[monmouth]

Going to disagree-Sunak is right that mathematical skills are far too weak in the UK now-god knows the number of students I have had who can't understand percentages, logarithmic scales, data distribution or unit conversion. I use maths hugely from calculations of concentrations, viable counts, gene expression analysis through to the complex genomics stuff you see on TV. Most analysis can be done by computer but understanding the principles is key.

Secondary to that is that media and opinion is always full of arts and humanities graduates. I have said many times that education needs reform-for many it needs to be more applied and vocational for others it needs some broadening. Science is useless without context or understanding of social impacts. If you are studying sciences post 16 some exposure to arts and social sciences is useful and vice versa. Need not even be assessed by an exam.

Isn't that a different angle to the argument though Prof? Keeping everyone doing maths to 18 won't solve it with current methods of teaching and assessment. The students you cite do need it, as do the ones that come to me, but they already have A* at A Level and many...most...can't handle the requirements you have specified.

I don't think anyone could argue against the statement that all educational standards, not just maths, need significant improvement. But that's really motherhood and apple pie I suppose. Sunak's ideas are impractical and don't address the issue. Apple pie in the sky.

 

[Jackfath]

Education is devolved in Wales so what Rishi says about Maths doesn't necessarily apply to us.
Some points about Schools in Wales delivering a more bespoke and interesting curriculum made here are happening. For example, there are schools now that teach pupils construction skills, such as bricklaying, carpentry and electrics.

 

[MrSwerve]

I should probably weigh in on this - I teach Maths at a University and the wife is a head of maths at a secondary school. Maths is so stigmatised as a subject...there's always a bit of a strange competition to say how much one hates it, I guess it's the same as many subjects but maths is always picked on the most for some reason.

It's true that the mathematical ability of our population is waning, especially when you compare to countries in Asia, for example. I'm a bit conflicted regarding having to do maths to the age of 18...I can understand why one would not want to do that, but I think it would benefit us as a population, on the whole. I think people probably have a bit of a stereotypical view of what much of secondary school maths is like these days. It isn't simply a teacher doing endless Trigonometry questions on a white board (or black board if you're old enough!). There is a lot of real-world problem solving involved and this can only benefit young people growing up. If they could further develop the syllabus to include maths applied to (e.g.) finance, engineering and computing...I would support making people study maths up to the age of 18.

I have to deal with the whole 'when are we ever going to use this' thing every year...I'm kind of lucky in that respect as by the time students have got to me, they generally know what they want to do as a career and know that maths is important to them. The way I like to look at it when pushing students into various branches of maths, is that it's a bit like having a watch that is water/pressure proof up to 1000m depth. You may never swim that deep, but it's nice to know that you'll be safe if you drop it in the bath. They may never do the maths as complex as we teach at University when they actually get in to industry, but they'll be confident that they'll be able to cope with pretty much any calculation that does arise.

Personally I love all of the 'boring' pure calculus, trigonometry, complex analysis stuff, but I can understand how 'forcing' people to do that up to the age of 18 may well push people away from the stuff. From a selfish point of view it would probably help me in my job, especially on foundation degrees, but I think that they really need put across the applications of maths to turn young people on to it.

 

[Professor]

I should probably weigh in on this - I teach Maths at a University and the wife is a head of maths at a secondary school. Maths is so stigmatised as a subject...there's always a bit of a strange competition to say how much one hates it, I guess it's the same as many subjects but maths is always picked on the most for some reason.

It's true that the mathematical ability of our population is waning, especially when you compare to countries in Asia, for example. I'm a bit conflicted regarding having to do maths to the age of 18...I can understand why one would not want to do that, but I think it would benefit us as a population, on the whole. I think people probably have a bit of a stereotypical view of what much of secondary school maths is like these days. It isn't simply a teacher doing endless Trigonometry questions on a white board (or black board if you're old enough!). There is a lot of real-world problem solving involved and this can only benefit young people growing up. If they could further develop the syllabus to include maths applied to (e.g.) finance, engineering and computing...I would support making people study maths up to the age of 18.

I have to deal with the whole 'when are we ever going to use this' thing every year...I'm kind of lucky in that respect as by the time students have got to me, they generally know what they want to do as a career and know that maths is important to them. The way I like to look at it when pushing students into various branches of maths, is that it's a bit like having a watch that is water/pressure proof up to 1000m depth. You may never swim that deep, but it's nice to know that you'll be safe if you drop it in the bath. They may never do the maths as complex as we teach at University when they actually get in to industry, but they'll be confident that they'll be able to cope with pretty much any calculation that does arise.

Personally I love all of the 'boring' pure calculus, trigonometry, complex analysis stuff, but I can understand how 'forcing' people to do that up to the age of 18 may well push people away from the stuff. From a selfish point of view it would probably help me in my job, especially on foundation degrees, but I think that they really need put across the applications of maths to turn young people on to it.

It's the application-the relationship between decimals, fractions and percentages is an example. Total lack of understanding of basic statistics that relate to relative risk and probability-the old fallacy of the 'law of averages'. For example models and projections- not that I would expect people to know how to model or interest it (I don't) but at least understand what these things are. The pandemic has been good for complete numerical nonsense.

 

[MrSwerve]

Most analysis can be done by computer but understanding the principles is key.

Haha, funnily enough I had a student doing a Computer Science degree come up to me last November...after a lecture about Matrix algebra. He said "what's the point in me learning how to do this? I could just write a program for a computer to do it for me!" I then asked how he would go about programming the calculations in. :lol:

 

[exiledclaseboy]

I should probably weigh in on this - I teach Maths at a University and the wife is a head of maths at a secondary school. Maths is so stigmatised as a subject...there's always a bit of a strange competition to say how much one hates it, I guess it's the same as many subjects but maths is always picked on the most for some reason.

It's true that the mathematical ability of our population is waning, especially when you compare to countries in Asia, for example. I'm a bit conflicted regarding having to do maths to the age of 18...I can understand why one would not want to do that, but I think it would benefit us as a population, on the whole. I think people probably have a bit of a stereotypical view of what much of secondary school maths is like these days. It isn't simply a teacher doing endless Trigonometry questions on a white board (or black board if you're old enough!). There is a lot of real-world problem solving involved and this can only benefit young people growing up. If they could further develop the syllabus to include maths applied to (e.g.) finance, engineering and computing...I would support making people study maths up to the age of 18.

I have to deal with the whole 'when are we ever going to use this' thing every year...I'm kind of lucky in that respect as by the time students have got to me, they generally know what they want to do as a career and know that maths is important to them. The way I like to look at it when pushing students into various branches of maths, is that it's a bit like having a watch that is water/pressure proof up to 1000m depth. You may never swim that deep, but it's nice to know that you'll be safe if you drop it in the bath. They may never do the maths as complex as we teach at University when they actually get in to industry, but they'll be confident that they'll be able to cope with pretty much any calculation that does arise.

Personally I love all of the 'boring' pure calculus, trigonometry, complex analysis stuff, but I can understand how 'forcing' people to do that up to the age of 18 may well push people away from the stuff. From a selfish point of view it would probably help me in my job, especially on foundation degrees, but I think that they really need put across the applications of maths to turn young people on to it.

Pah, away with you and your input from someone who knows what they’re talking about. Us bunch of 50somethings just want to have a whinge about how shit our education was back then. :lol:

 

[monmouth]

Compulsory 'more or less' would be my first step.

Even has Harry Kane missing his penalty. What's the chances of that?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0dpv8lp

 

[Neath_Jack]

I should probably weigh in on this - I teach Maths at a University and the wife is a head of maths at a secondary school. Maths is so stigmatised as a subject...there's always a bit of a strange competition to say how much one hates it, I guess it's the same as many subjects but maths is always picked on the most for some reason.

It's true that the mathematical ability of our population is waning, especially when you compare to countries in Asia, for example. I'm a bit conflicted regarding having to do maths to the age of 18...I can understand why one would not want to do that, but I think it would benefit us as a population, on the whole. I think people probably have a bit of a stereotypical view of what much of secondary school maths is like these days. It isn't simply a teacher doing endless Trigonometry questions on a white board (or black board if you're old enough!). There is a lot of real-world problem solving involved and this can only benefit young people growing up. If they could further develop the syllabus to include maths applied to (e.g.) finance, engineering and computing...I would support making people study maths up to the age of 18.

I have to deal with the whole 'when are we ever going to use this' thing every year...I'm kind of lucky in that respect as by the time students have got to me, they generally know what they want to do as a career and know that maths is important to them. The way I like to look at it when pushing students into various branches of maths, is that it's a bit like having a watch that is water/pressure proof up to 1000m depth. You may never swim that deep, but it's nice to know that you'll be safe if you drop it in the bath. They may never do the maths as complex as we teach at University when they actually get in to industry, but they'll be confident that they'll be able to cope with pretty much any calculation that does arise.

Personally I love all of the 'boring' pure calculus, trigonometry, complex analysis stuff, but I can understand how 'forcing' people to do that up to the age of 18 may well push people away from the stuff. From a selfish point of view it would probably help me in my job, especially on foundation degrees, but I think that they really need put across the applications of maths to turn young people on to it.

I don't think anyone has any issue with pupils choosing to go on and do all that extra maths, even up to the age of 18, its the forcing of certain types of maths on us mere plebs when we have zero interest in it that is the problem for me.

You teacher bods are bound to be in favour of more and more maths, as that is your passion after all.