Are we doing OK or underachieving?

[cmajack]

We are, but what we're seeing is a clear divide in the fan base emerging, where you have some people like myself (and I suspect yourself, Dr Winston, Smurph and more than a handful of others are in this bracket) where that's just perfectly acceptable. Because we have lived and breathed the truly shit times, the shittest of the shit, and in the grand scheme of things being a middling second tier club is categorically not shit.

On the other side, you have fans whose only reference point is the relative success of the last 20-odd years - promotions, PL football, League Cup and FL Trophy wins, play off finals, etc. So being a bland, ok team in the second tier is just not exciting enough and we need to be up there challenging.

At risk of sounding condescending, those in the lower bracket will learn the hard way if they keep trying to destabilise the club by demanding we get rid of coaches every 5 minutes because we're not playing like Brazil 1970.

That's wide of the mark I'm sorry. I'm nearly 70 and have definitely seen some of the worst football this club has ever played. Was at Rochdale in 1975 when we lost 1-0 and had to apply for re-election, and I'm sure there's others around my age not in the Sheehan fan club. When people are praising Sheehan it's generally about last seasons results . We have seen very little this season to get remotely excited about , and i can't see Sheehan changing his pragmatic brand of boring football, even when something more exciting slaps him in the face ,like it did for the first 30 minutes Wednesday. There's no way on earth Eom should have been included in yesterday's team in front of Widell, but it suited the managers pragmatic brand of boring tedious, grind out results brand of football.

 

[Frankie Burrows Cap]

Personally I'd give him the season. Offer the reassurance his job is safe regardless of league position (unless relegation is looking likely).

Take pressure off him and the team and hopefully give them the freedom to perform like the side did towards the end of last season.

I'd agree with this. Clearly a run like last year post Christmas would change things, but unless someone can suggest a manager who's going to immediately get this team to gel and increase the points per game then I see little benefit in getting rid of Sheehan now (or at any point in the next few months).

This doesn't mean I'm loving watching us play or think we're not capable of more - his aim and that of the new players is to prove that is the case over the remaining 33 matches.

 

[Smurph]

I'd agree with this. Clearly a run like last year post Christmas would change things, but unless someone can suggest a manager who's going to immediately get this team to gel and increase the points per game then I see little benefit in getting rid of Sheehan now (or at any point in the next few months).

This doesn't mean I'm loving watching us play or think we're not capable of more - his aim and that of the new players is to prove that is the case over the remaining 33 matches.

Now is the time to hold our nerve and not buckle to pressure.

 

[lidojack]

We are, but what we're seeing is a clear divide in the fan base emerging, where you have some people like myself (and I suspect yourself, Dr Winston, Smurph and more than a handful of others are in this bracket) where that's just perfectly acceptable. Because we have lived and breathed the truly shit times, the shittest of the shit, and in the grand scheme of things being a middling second tier club is categorically not shit.

On the other side, you have fans whose only reference point is the relative success of the last 20-odd years - promotions, PL football, League Cup and FL Trophy wins, play off finals, etc. So being a bland, ok team in the second tier is just not exciting enough and we need to be up there challenging.

At risk of sounding condescending, those in the lower bracket will learn the hard way if they keep trying to destabilise the club by demanding we get rid of coaches every 5 minutes because we're not playing like Brazil 1970.

"I'm happy not improving because 20 odd years ago we were shit."

What an odd argument to make.

 

[tardylum]

Coming back with my own views

Casey - better than Burgess but was woefully at fault for letting the ball bounce yesterday
Inoussa - agree he is our most dangerous but the competition there is a pretty low bar that he is over but not by a massive way. Runs a lot, little end product - see Jefferson Montero
Ishe - seems OK but we dont know this based on limited game time
Galbraith - Agree although he need to have his restraints taken off him
Idah - the fact that we now consider Vipotnik first choice when everyone said he was dreadful tells you much. He was our second choice striker this summer in the market and I have seen nothing to use the word excellent in that bracket
Yalcouye - overrated and nowhere near what Brighton fans painted him to be. Average championship midfielder.
Melker - Agree
Stamenic - has faded since his debut but definitely a player in there
Burgess - not the player Ipswich fans suggested he was

What that leads me to think is we are either believing these players to be better than they are or they are that good and the manager is making them look average.

And that is why people say it is a 6.

As for the others

Benson - I am fitter than him
Wales - clearly signed as one for the future
Santos - had forgot about him which says much
Farman - is what he was signed to be

This is almost word for word how I see things. Although I would be more positive about Burgess. I think he is a very good defender for our level and has given us a good foundation and it can be hard to find players who are as reliable as him. Casey has promise and makes the option to switch the system an appealing one but Burgess is a much better player today. I think our central defenders and keeper are the biggest strength we have versus the other teams in the division.

The reason it is only a 6/10 for me, is because our biggest signings are the ones who could go either way right now. Idah has not had much time to show his real quality, but I think it is reasonable to have expected a bigger impact so far for the money paid. Stamenic has been very mixed and I am hopeful he will come good in the new system and with Galbraith taking on the responsibility to be the main player in midfield rather than him. Inoussa is a positive but the question is if he can take that next step and be more productive. 6/10 is saying it is okay bordering on good. 7/10 would be good. 8/10 would be great. With so many question marks I do not think that is unfair right now.

What I do not understand from some people is the idea that all of our players are excellent, playing well and can not be questioned and neither can the coach but also we can not question why we are struggling to create chances or win games. If everything was going as well as some people would have you believe then it would be reflected by performances a little bit more. I understand there being a backlash and defensiveness to the tedious serial moaners and a lot of bad blood held over from arguments about Williams and Russ but when people are being scoffed at for saying things are okay and could go either way, it has detached itself from reality.

 

[Smurph]

"I'm happy not improving because 20 odd years ago we were shit."

What an odd argument to make.

Isn't odd from my perspective.

We have and are making improvements, just need more consistency over ninety minutes.

 

[Frankie Burrows Cap]

Be interesting to see the poll and where people were expecting us to finish in comparison to where we stand presently.....both don't go hand in hand but after 13 games would give a good gauge regards the direction we are going.
I regularly defended our second tier solidity over the last few seasons only to be told different or I was wrong, it's interesting that some are now towing the same line and it seems fine for that to be the case(not you Andrew I may add, you to be fair have been consistent over the last few years).

It's interesting that posters now feel it's ok, still early days and we are still in the process of bedding things in when we are as boring as ever as an attacking threat and sat in 16th spot.
Are we seeing improvements in the grand scheme of things? Or are we achieving the same outcomes but just in a different manner?

We need to push on as a team and management, we can do it but that handbrake needs to come off.
I'm not expecting wonders, I think we have a decent squad, I won't get carried away thinking any different but we have a young squad with possible future potential.

I'm all for the 'league table doesn't lie' but whilst you get an idea of where you're at after 10+ games it tends not to settle down until the halfway point (at least).

Currently there are two points between 9th and 17th and making a knee jerk reaction (sacking/changing manager) based on not winning 1 game which ended as a draw seems wrong to me. I was hoping and still think we're capable of being at the top end of this bracket - time will tell if this was misguided.

What has surprised me so far is that Hull, Charlton, Preston and too a lesser extent Bristol City, Millwall and Stoke all lie above this group of sides. I'm going to try to not judge too much again until after Boxing Day (and the mid point of the season).

EDIT: When I say not winning 1 game I wasn't specifically talking about yesterday, just the fact that 2 more points would have us in 10th and I think the current position might cloud some people's judgement.

 

[lidojack]

Isn't odd from my perspective.

We have and are making improvements, just need more consistency over ninety minutes.

We have less ppg and xG this season under Sheehan than we did in his 13 games last season.

We have objectively gotten worse.

 

[magicdaps10]

I'm all for the 'league table doesn't lie' but whilst you get an idea of where you're at after 10+ games it tends not to settle down until the halfway point (at least).

Currently there are two points between 9th and 17th and making a knee jerk reaction (sacking/changing manager) based on not winning 1 game which ended as a draw seems wrong to me. I was hoping and still think we're capable of being at the top end of this bracket - time will tell if this was misguided.

What has surprised me so far is that Hull, Charlton, Preston and too a lesser extent Bristol City, Millwall and Stoke all lie above this group of sides. I'm going to try to not judge too much again until after Boxing Day (and the mid point of the season).

EDIT: When I say not winning 1 game I wasn't specifically talking about yesterday, just the fact that 2 more points would have us in 10th and I think the current position might cloud some people's judgement.

It's certainly a tight table from 17th to 5th. The old phrase of judge after 10 games in this league is going out the window this season and previous seasons.
It certainly is too early to be changing our Manager but we are currently right on the balance and need to be sure that we go the correct way although performances haven't really filled me with much confidence.
Hopefully Sheehan is building the foundation ready for us to push on, if this is the case then it can't be too far off and it needs to come or we might be in a position where serious questions will need to be asked.

 

[cmajack]

Isn't odd from my perspective.

We have and are making improvements, just need more consistency over ninety minutes.

We are not making improvements, we are basically where we were 12 months ago.

 

[Smurph]

We have less ppg and xG this season under Sheehan than we did in his 13 games last season.

We have objectively gotten worse.

Not for me, I'm not in to all that xG stuff.

 

[Smurph]

We are not making improvements, we are basically where we were 12 months ago.

I get that's your view on it, mine is the opposite.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

"I'm happy not improving because 20 odd years ago we were shit."

What an odd argument to make.

Didn't say I didn't want us to improve.

I'm just not stamping my feet about it because I want it yesterday.

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

That's wide of the mark I'm sorry. I'm nearly 70 and have definitely seen some of the worst football this club has ever played. Was at Rochdale in 1975 when we lost 1-0 and had to apply for re-election, and I'm sure there's others around my age not in the Sheehan fan club. When people are praising Sheehan it's generally about last seasons results . We have seen very little this season to get remotely excited about , and i can't see Sheehan changing his pragmatic brand of boring football, even when something more exciting slaps him in the face ,like it did for the first 30 minutes Wednesday. There's no way on earth Eom should have been included in yesterday's team in front of Widell, but it suited the managers pragmatic brand of boring tedious, grind out results brand of football.

Ok, fair enough. There's always grey I suppose.

I trust you were at the head of the queue complaining when Steve Cooper twice got us to the playoffs (Inc one final) playing some of the ugliest, shot-shy football we've seen in the last 20 years then?

 

[lidojack]

Not for me, I'm not in to all that xG stuff.

And the lower points total? The 4 less goals?

Like I said; objectively worse.