Sleepy Joe

[Jackmanandboy]

Poor old Joe, approval ratings now as bad as any President at this stage of office, even Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter were ahead of him.

 

[Professor]

Usual right-wing move of repeating lies until people think they are fact.

1. Leftist media-what a laugh. Neither are the Democratic Party left wing (they are a centre right Neo-liberal party by any normal definition) nor are the media that support them such as CNN or the NYT. There is no commitment to socialism. Where they differ from the GOP is in more social Liberalism.
2. Anyone flying the flags of the Confederacy is celebrating a regime for which the main raison d'être was the retention of slavery. Now there are other reasons around the secession of the confederacy but lets not pretend the political driving was by some pretty awful corrupt slave-owning politicians-step forward President of the Confederacy Andrew Jackson. Flying the flags of the Confederacy whether the well-known flag used from 1863 or the earlier 'stars and bars' is flying a symbol that condones slavery, as much as the swastika supports National Socialism.
3. Robert E. Lee. 'Uncle Robert/Uncle Bobby Lee". Yes, a very good soldier and rather a hostage of fortune in these events. Hero of the South, which given the rank awfulness of Jackson v Lincoln, is little surprise. Professional soldier, not a supporter of slavery, with those slaves who worked at Arlington being largely from his wife's family. I would not condemn Lee, he became a Confederacy General out of loyalty to his state rather than any political belief or support of slavery. The defeat at Gettysburg was of course the turning point from which the South could never recover. Also helped by incompetence in leadership of the Union Army until the likes U.S. Grant and Tecumseh Sherman. He fought a great rearguard but at huge cost to the South and ultimately the Union in the need for reconstruction.
4. Charlottesville. Yes, there is negative reporting of Trump around this. But frankly if you are not condemning Neo-Nazi White Supremacy groups (which would almost certainly be made a terror group in the UK) then you are complicit in their support. And its getting clearer these groups were prepared to support an insurrection. Albeit an incompetent one.
5. Strange how anything, even if actually true and verifiable (like many to these fact-checks) is left wing if does not agree with an extreme right wing, extreme evangelical Christian point of view.

Now if you want to express support of racist, homophobic misogynists that's fine.

But I'm guessing others may not be as tempered in their replies as me.

1) Of course the main stream media is largely a leftist gaggle of propaganda when it comes to American politics. Take Fox out and who are the main players that are anything but left wing? Nobody.

2) That’s just rubbish. Far more defined the confederacy than slavery, what you are doing it putting your perception of a flag on what others perceive it as. It is absolutely nothing remotely similar to the swastika. That’s just ridiculous.

3) We agree, a superb military figure who wasn’t shamed by defeat. The North had 100,000 more men and outgunned the South in every conceivable way - yet it still took years to defeat them.

4) We agree again. But who wasn’t condemning Nazi groups is my point? People always trot out that he said there was fine people on both sides and intentionally stop there…. Trumps full quote regarding Charlottesville, immediately after that sentence, was as follows:-

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

How much clearer do you want him to be? It was simply a media stitch up, again. I’m sure you are balanced enough to recognise that? The quotes are available everywhere you care to look.

5) Who is supporting racists, homophobes and misogynists? You have lost me on that point.

You are deluded. American media is largely pro-Democrat. The Democrats are a centre-right party. The fact the GOP are straying towards a far-right Christian fundamentalist ideology does no change that. And Fox are a joke. Boris was deposed because we became woke.

and Trump also said 'fine people on both sides' which is hardly condemnation. Any decent human being would have cracked down on anti-semitic and racist groups rather than foster them. Some may argue not far from using these people in a way akin to Brownshirts or the SA.

I pointed out the secession was not only around slavery. But it was the main driver as slavers like Jackson wanted to keep their cotton and tobacco plantations to accumulate more wealth. And when I say main driver it was the fundamental reason the secession and war. Symbols of the Confederacy celebrate the killing of Americans on both sides around maintenance of slavery. I have read extensively around the Civil War since I began collecting Brittan's soldiers in 1972. Have visited museums in Louisiana and Georgia, so don't come at me with whatabouttery in the usual right wing way. The war happened because of the slavery issue. Whatever else was secondary, tertiary or quaternary to that. It is symbol of oppression and an anathema for many millions of Americans, The Swastika is an absolutely appropriate comparison.

No wonder you are lost. Your head is filled with sawdust to remotely defend these racists.

 

[Professor]

Poor old Joe, approval ratings now as bad as any President at this stage of office, even Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter were ahead of him.

At least he can probably think and chew gum at the same time.

He was a poor choice for the Democrats. The 'safe' choice. The US needs change to understand its future as it declines from its role as the world's main power as China and India rise. The UK got change post WWI when we began to decline as the 'top dog' which brought Labour to government and ultimately universal suffrage. That change could be explosive in a country still as young and embedded in religion. Let's hope it's not.

 

[AceJack]

I'm talking about taking down a statue which venerates a man who fought and killed American's for the right to own slaves. Neo-nazis marched against the removal of that statue, chanting "jews will not replace us" in the process. Over the course of the protests, a neo nazi killed a woman in a terrorist attack. Fine people do not march with Neo-nazis. Right now, that's where I'm drawing a line. If you want to talk about other statues or monuments, send over some examples and we can have that conversation.

As it stands, you've agreed with the objectives of the white supremacists in not removing the statue, and downplayed their actions as silly. Everything else is obfuscation, trolling, or bad faith discussion on your part.

Again you are conflating and exaggerating.

First of all that statue was being vandalised, it was not an agreed removal. These things happen by committee not by vigilantes acting on behalf of everyone. It’s not how it works.

Second of all not everyone against the removal was a neo Nazi. As professor said above me, there are many that respect Lee as a key and prominent military mind, going back a couple of hundred of years to condemn by modern day standards is an intellectual fallacy.

Thirdly you are conflating “with” neo Nazis. They happened to agree on a subject, it doesn’t make them the same. Everyone is free to turn up to anywhere and stop something they disagree with, it doesn’t have to be for the same reasons or even have the same beliefs.

Downplayed what actions as silly? I have called their chanting silly and provocative, just as I have with Antifas chants towards the murder to police. It’s largely all talk for a reaction isn’t it, unless we are pretending otherwise.

The murder was abhorrent, but have noted it was not as you described which was “a pack of white supremacists” who people were marching with.

It was one, who nobody was marching with.

I understand it’s convenient to put a point of view in a box and call it trolling, unfortunately the points remain there largely unaddressed.

If neo-nazis were marching on an issue which i shared commonality, i'd not share a platform with them on account of them being nazis but thats just me.

So now you're now arguing that neo nazis marching and chanting "jews will not replace us" were doing so for a reaction, rather than because it was something they sincerely believed? Righto.

James Alex Fields Jr., a neo nazi, participated in the Unite the Right rallies on the same weekend he murdered a counter protestor, so yes, people were marching with him.

 

[Jackmanandboy]

Poor old Joe, approval ratings now as bad as any President at this stage of office, even Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter were ahead of him.

At least he can probably think and chew gum at the same time.

He was a poor choice for the Democrats. The 'safe' choice. The US needs change to understand its future as it declines from its role as the world's main power as China and India rise. The UK got change post WWI when we began to decline as the 'top dog' which brought Labour to government and ultimately universal suffrage. That change could be explosive in a country still as young and embedded in religion. Let's hope it's not.

My New York colleague says it's okay there apart from law and order, education, healthcare, the justice system and the economy.

 

[Professor]

At least he can probably think and chew gum at the same time.

He was a poor choice for the Democrats. The 'safe' choice. The US needs change to understand its future as it declines from its role as the world's main power as China and India rise. The UK got change post WWI when we began to decline as the 'top dog' which brought Labour to government and ultimately universal suffrage. That change could be explosive in a country still as young and embedded in religion. Let's hope it's not.

My New York colleague says it's okay there apart from law and order, education, healthcare, the justice system and the economy.

Well we are all sharing the economic issues with inflation driven by fuel and supply issues. American education is generally poor even at University level in comparison to Europe (of course there are exceptions if you pay). Ultimately it's a question of taxation. Low tax usually means poor public services. That's a choice we have to make.

 

[Professor]

At least he can probably think and chew gum at the same time.

He was a poor choice for the Democrats. The 'safe' choice. The US needs change to understand its future as it declines from its role as the world's main power as China and India rise. The UK got change post WWI when we began to decline as the 'top dog' which brought Labour to government and ultimately universal suffrage. That change could be explosive in a country still as young and embedded in religion. Let's hope it's not.

My New York colleague says it's okay there apart from law and order, education, healthcare, the justice system and the economy.

I'll let you know-going there next month!

 

[exiledclaseboy]

Isn’t it nice when an old friend pops in for a visit.

 

[Darran]

Isn’t it nice when an old friend pops in for a visit.

Dimi Hendrix. :lol:

 

[Villageswan]

1) Of course the main stream media is largely a leftist gaggle of propaganda when it comes to American politics. Take Fox out and who are the main players that are anything but left wing? Nobody.

2) That’s just rubbish. Far more defined the confederacy than slavery, what you are doing it putting your perception of a flag on what others perceive it as. It is absolutely nothing remotely similar to the swastika. That’s just ridiculous.

3) We agree, a superb military figure who wasn’t shamed by defeat. The North had 100,000 more men and outgunned the South in every conceivable way - yet it still took years to defeat them.

4) We agree again. But who wasn’t condemning Nazi groups is my point? People always trot out that he said there was fine people on both sides and intentionally stop there…. Trumps full quote regarding Charlottesville, immediately after that sentence, was as follows:-

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

How much clearer do you want him to be? It was simply a media stitch up, again. I’m sure you are balanced enough to recognise that? The quotes are available everywhere you care to look.

5) Who is supporting racists, homophobes and misogynists? You have lost me on that point.

You are deluded. American media is largely pro-Democrat. The Democrats are a centre-right party. The fact the GOP are straying towards a far-right Christian fundamentalist ideology does no change that. And Fox are a joke. Boris was deposed because we became woke.

and Trump also said 'fine people on both sides' which is hardly condemnation. Any decent human being would have cracked down on anti-semitic and racist groups rather than foster them. Some may argue not far from using these people in a way akin to Brownshirts or the SA.

I pointed out the secession was not only around slavery. But it was the main driver as slavers like Jackson wanted to keep their cotton and tobacco plantations to accumulate more wealth. And when I say main driver it was the fundamental reason the secession and war. Symbols of the Confederacy celebrate the killing of Americans on both sides around maintenance of slavery. I have read extensively around the Civil War since I began collecting Brittan's soldiers in 1972. Have visited museums in Louisiana and Georgia, so don't come at me with whatabouttery in the usual right wing way. The war happened because of the slavery issue. Whatever else was secondary, tertiary or quaternary to that. It is symbol of oppression and an anathema for many millions of Americans, The Swastika is an absolutely appropriate comparison.

No wonder you are lost. Your head is filled with sawdust to remotely defend these racists.

Not deluded at all, even down the the social media sites are largely left wing. Which is why the Biden story has been buried for 2 years yet you hear of Trump every time he sneezes.

Trump did say there was fine people on both sides, he was correct. He clarified that he wasn’t talking about the bad people that were there and named them and condemned them. What more do you want?

I’m glad we both now agree that the confederacy was not just about slavery. That means the flag means different things to different people. You are projecting what it means to you, onto others and condemning them as a result.

Which racists have I defended? Again I’m lost with this “defence of racists” line that seems to have been created.

Show me a specific line if you can.

 

[Darran]

https://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

 

[Villageswan]

Again you are conflating and exaggerating.

First of all that statue was being vandalised, it was not an agreed removal. These things happen by committee not by vigilantes acting on behalf of everyone. It’s not how it works.

Second of all not everyone against the removal was a neo Nazi. As professor said above me, there are many that respect Lee as a key and prominent military mind, going back a couple of hundred of years to condemn by modern day standards is an intellectual fallacy.

Thirdly you are conflating “with” neo Nazis. They happened to agree on a subject, it doesn’t make them the same. Everyone is free to turn up to anywhere and stop something they disagree with, it doesn’t have to be for the same reasons or even have the same beliefs.

Downplayed what actions as silly? I have called their chanting silly and provocative, just as I have with Antifas chants towards the murder to police. It’s largely all talk for a reaction isn’t it, unless we are pretending otherwise.

The murder was abhorrent, but have noted it was not as you described which was “a pack of white supremacists” who people were marching with.

It was one, who nobody was marching with.

I understand it’s convenient to put a point of view in a box and call it trolling, unfortunately the points remain there largely unaddressed.

If neo-nazis were marching on an issue which i shared commonality, i'd not share a platform with them on account of them being nazis but thats just me.

So now you're now arguing that neo nazis marching and chanting "jews will not replace us" were doing so for a reaction, rather than because it was something they sincerely believed? Righto.

James Alex Fields Jr., a neo nazi, participated in the Unite the Right rallies on the same weekend he murdered a counter protestor, so yes, people were marching with him.

That’s where your stupidity comes in then I would have thought. You stand up for what you believe in, you don’t shape what you believe in around what others do. But that is a lot of people today I suppose, which is why the youth is such a mess.

Arguing? I’m not arguing about anything. I’m telling you the way things are.

Do Antifa want all police murdered? Or are they doing so to be provocative? Did all of those people hate Jewish people? Or chanting that stuff to be provocative? I would say their actions would be the tell tale sign rather than the songs they sing in public.

I’m sure some are intensely anti-Semitic. But again you are characterising everyone. That is the issue.

You said, and I quote “people marching with a pack of White supremacists, responsible for the murder of someone” end of quote. (See what I did there)… I won’t “repeat the line”.

People were not marching with a pack of White supremacists responsible for the murder of someone though, we’re they.

That is a false categorisation, and an important one. You are doing that because you are trying to paint the narrative that people condoned his (their) actions and then marched with him (them) as a result.

In reality what you are actually saying is they marched with someone (singular) who went on to commit murder unknowingly to anyone who marched. It’s white the difference to what you initially said - there is a reason for that.

As I said, people of all beliefs and walks of life were there to stop the vandalism of the statue of Lee. Focussing on one group was done so to paint a false narrative that everyone there must have been from the same group.

That’s false. Hence the “fine people on both sides, other than the White supremacists” speech that was (and still is) misrepresented, again, quite intentionally.

 

[Ebo]

Hmmm thought I could smell something bad when I logged in. The smell, the cancer is amongst us. Just ignore the prick.

 

[Skippyjack]

Hmmm thought I could smell something bad when I logged in. The smell, the cancer is amongst us. Just ignore the prick.

He's right though, it's all about the narrative ace wants to portray forcefully on someone

 

[Darran]

Hmmm thought I could smell something bad when I logged in. The smell, the cancer is amongst us. Just ignore the prick.

He's right though, it's all about the narrative ace wants to portray forcefully on someone

He’s always right. :lol: