Sleepy Joe

[Villageswan]

Of course it is, slavery back then was a way of life. Any historian or anyone remotely aware of history will tell you that.

Slavery was probably more prominent in Africa at that time than America. Every African slave sold to Europeans sold from Africa, was mostly by Africans. Slavery had been seen as the traditional spoils of war for centuries.

It is only relatively recently within the last 2000+ years of documented civilisation that slavery has rightfully been roundly condemned. Prior to that all races, all colours, all genders and all creeds were slaves. It was largely about economics not race.

Owning a slave doesn’t take away someone’s achievements. If it turns out Pele owned a slave he would still be one of the greatest footballers to ever live.

Lee was on of the greatest Generals not only in American history but world history. His methods were still being studied in World War 2 such was his reputation in military circles.

I don’t think there are stewards at marches and protests. Are there? Maybe they reported it.

There is nothing to give away. Those chants are just as silly as Antifa chanting for all police to die. They are done to provoke a reaction in the main.

But of course it takes intelligence to interpret accurately in an age of political dramatisation, which yes.. it’s the penchant of the modern left.

 

[Villageswan]

Also just to check as you seemed to gloss over it:-

When you said “marching with a pack of white supremacists responsible for murdering someone”.

Are you referring to the sole driver of the car that didn’t march at all?

Just want to be clear that we are talking about the same incident and you are embellishing, as opposed to us talking about different incidents, as I will need to take a look at what you are referring to.

I’m only aware of the car incident.

 

[AceJack]

Of course it is, slavery back then was a way of life. Any historian or anyone remotely aware of history will tell you that.

Slavery was probably more prominent in Africa at that time than America. Every African slave sold to Europeans was sold from Africa, mostly by Africans. Slavery had been seen as the traditional spoils of war for centuries.

Owning a slave doesn’t take away someone’s achievements. If it turns out Pele owned a slave he would still be one of the greatest footballers to ever live.

Lee was on of the greatest Generals not only in American history but world history. His methods were still being studied in World War 2 such was his reputation in military circles.

I don’t think there are stewards at marches and protests. Are there? Maybe they reported it.

There is nothing to give away. Those chants are just as silly as Antifa chanting for all police to die. They are done to provoke a reaction in the main.

But of course it takes intelligence to interpret accurately in an age of political dramatisation, which yes.. it’s the penchant of the modern left.

If you want to sit there and defend slavery and slave owners, and the people who fought and killed to defend it as an institution, have your fill. It suits you, along with your downplaying of neo-nazis and their anti-Semitic chanting in Charlottesville. Those "silly" neo-nazis eh? What are they like?

If it turned out Pele owned slaves it wouldn't change his footballing achievements but it would undoubtedly change how we discussed his legacy. Unless you're a creep who thinks people should be given carte blanche to do what they like, free of moral scrutiny, just as long as they work hard enough and succeed at something. Perhaps we should re-erect the statue of Jimmy Savile? After all, he raised millions and millions for charities.

This is the murder I'm referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottesville_car_attack

The perpetrator was a neo nazi, who attended the rally and rammed his car into peaceful protestors.

 

[Villageswan]

Of course it is, slavery back then was a way of life. Any historian or anyone remotely aware of history will tell you that.

Slavery was probably more prominent in Africa at that time than America. Every African slave sold to Europeans was sold from Africa, mostly by Africans. Slavery had been seen as the traditional spoils of war for centuries.

Owning a slave doesn’t take away someone’s achievements. If it turns out Pele owned a slave he would still be one of the greatest footballers to ever live.

Lee was on of the greatest Generals not only in American history but world history. His methods were still being studied in World War 2 such was his reputation in military circles.

I don’t think there are stewards at marches and protests. Are there? Maybe they reported it.

There is nothing to give away. Those chants are just as silly as Antifa chanting for all police to die. They are done to provoke a reaction in the main.

But of course it takes intelligence to interpret accurately in an age of political dramatisation, which yes.. it’s the penchant of the modern left.

If you want to sit there and defend slavery and slave owners, and the people who fought and killed to defend it as an institution, have your fill. It suits you, along with your downplaying of neo-nazis and their anti-Semitic chanting in Charlottesville. Those "silly" neo-nazis eh? What are they like?

If it turned out Pele owned slaves it wouldn't change his footballing achievements but it would undoubtedly change how we discussed his legacy. Unless you're a creep who thinks people should be given carte blanche to do what they like, free of moral scrutiny, just as long as they work hard enough and succeed at something. Perhaps we should re-erect the statue of Jimmy Savile? After all, he raised millions and millions for charities.

This is the murder I'm referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottesville_car_attack

The perpetrator was a neo nazi, who attended the rally and rammed his car into peaceful protestors.

Defend slavery? Where?

Defend slave owners? Where?

There is a difference between defending slavery and acknowledging its place in history.

Public executions would be a similar sort of thing - I don’t think we should be tearing down every picture of Henry VIII. Doesn’t mean I agree with him beheading his wives, something that by today’s standard would be horrific.

I don’t think we should be tearing down the colosseum and statues of Caesar either, which is essentially the two most famous slave connected things on the planet today.

If Pele owned a slave you may well dislike him as a person, however his place as one of the greatest footballers to ever live would remain untouched.

Jimmy Savile committed vile crimes that were abhorrent in the age he lived in, it was not a sign of the times but indeed someone actively going against societies standards to commit crime. That’s what I mean by the intelligence to distinguish.

Ok, so we are talking about the same incident in Charlottesville.

Absolutely no idea why you portrayed it the way you did then, because what you said happened and what we both know to have happened (as confirmed by your link) isn’t remotely similar.

I can only assume you were embellishing in the similar manner that I described is a penchant of the modern left. Is that fair?

Was it “a pack”, or was it one?

 

[JackSomething]

What do you mean “defend slave owners”? The bloke had been dead 150 years, he doesn’t need defending. You are assuming people were there for the same reasons.

Slavery unfortunately was a part of life, and has been a part of life in every country around the globe. He wasn’t celebrated for his slave owning, he was celebrated for being one of the greatest generals in US military history.

It is the truly thick that hold historical figures to modern day standards.

Some people chanting a silly provocative chant doesn’t mean everyone there agrees with them. I’ve heard some vile chants at various football matches, doesn’t mean I agree with them.

As for marching alongside “a pack of white supremacists responsible for murdering someone” - wasn’t it just one bloke in a car?

Recognising slavery as being a moral evil is not a "modern day standard" :lol:

One of the greatest generals in US military history? He was a slave owner who fought and killed US troops to defend his right to own black people as property, and he lost.

If you've heard vile chanting at football matches and not reported it to a steward or the club you are part of the problem and so is every supporter who turns a blind eye to it.

Downplaying something as vile as "jews will not replace us" to "silly" and "provocative"? You've given yourself away properly there.

Not to mention downplaying a murderer as 'just one bloke in a car'. He'll defend Kyle Rittenhouse next and we can complete a line on right-wing apologists bingo...

 

[Villageswan]

Recognising slavery as being a moral evil is not a "modern day standard" :lol:

One of the greatest generals in US military history? He was a slave owner who fought and killed US troops to defend his right to own black people as property, and he lost.

If you've heard vile chanting at football matches and not reported it to a steward or the club you are part of the problem and so is every supporter who turns a blind eye to it.

Downplaying something as vile as "jews will not replace us" to "silly" and "provocative"? You've given yourself away properly there.

Not to mention downplaying a murderer as 'just one bloke in a car'. He'll defend Kyle Rittenhouse next and we can complete a line on right-wing apologists bingo...

Downplaying? In what way?

Or do you mean “….and he’s not joining in with our embellishing”.

One bloke. One car. That is literally what the situation was with regards to that murder, was it not? Correct me if I am wrong.

Because it was initially portrayed as people “marching with a pack of whites supremacists responsible for murdering someone”.

It was deliberately painted that way to insinuate that everyone there was in support of a group of murderous racists and thus implicating everyone there by association.

Where as the reality is it was a sole scumbag acting alone. Those that were in the vicinity for a variety of reasons had nothing to do with his actions.

Just like if someone murdered someone at a football match, you wouldn’t be guilty just because you were there and also supported the same team as the murderer.

You can embellish and twist my words until you are blue in the face, but I promise you that you will be wasting your time. I’m well versed in dismantling embellished nonsense.

 

[AceJack]

If you want to sit there and defend slavery and slave owners, and the people who fought and killed to defend it as an institution, have your fill. It suits you, along with your downplaying of neo-nazis and their anti-Semitic chanting in Charlottesville. Those "silly" neo-nazis eh? What are they like?

If it turned out Pele owned slaves it wouldn't change his footballing achievements but it would undoubtedly change how we discussed his legacy. Unless you're a creep who thinks people should be given carte blanche to do what they like, free of moral scrutiny, just as long as they work hard enough and succeed at something. Perhaps we should re-erect the statue of Jimmy Savile? After all, he raised millions and millions for charities.

This is the murder I'm referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottesville_car_attack

The perpetrator was a neo nazi, who attended the rally and rammed his car into peaceful protestors.

Defend slavery? Where?

Defend slave owners? Where?

There is a difference between defending slavery and acknowledging its place in history.

Public executions would be a similar sort of thing - I don’t think we should be tearing down every picture of Henry VIII. Doesn’t mean I agree with him beheading his wives, something that by today’s standard would be horrific.

I don’t think we should be tearing down the colosseum and statues of Caesar either, which is essentially the two most famous slave connected things on the planet today.

If Pele owned a slave you may well dislike him as a person, however his place as one of the greatest footballers to ever live would remain untouched.

Jimmy Savile committed vile crimes that were abhorrent in the age he lived in, it was not a sign of the times but indeed someone actively going against societies standards to commit crime. That’s what I mean by the intelligence to distinguish.

Ok, so we are talking about the same incident in Charlottesville.

Absolutely no idea why you portrayed it the way you did then, because what you said happened and what we both know to have happened (as confirmed by your link) isn’t remotely similar.

I can only assume you were embellishing in the similar manner that I described is a penchant of the modern left. Is that fair?

Was it “a pack”, or was it one?

No-ones trying to tear down the colosseum. Total red herring but nice try.

Robert E Lee owned slaves, and fought and killed to defend his right to own slaves. If you think it's appropriate to have a public statue celebrating him, then you are defending his reputation. It would be interesting to know where you would draw the line at venerating slave owners. So far you've not stopped at Pele on account of his footballing talents.

I haven't embellished anything. If I did, you could've it pointed out but you didn't.

 

[AceJack]

Recognising slavery as being a moral evil is not a "modern day standard" :lol:

One of the greatest generals in US military history? He was a slave owner who fought and killed US troops to defend his right to own black people as property, and he lost.

If you've heard vile chanting at football matches and not reported it to a steward or the club you are part of the problem and so is every supporter who turns a blind eye to it.

Downplaying something as vile as "jews will not replace us" to "silly" and "provocative"? You've given yourself away properly there.

Not to mention downplaying a murderer as 'just one bloke in a car'. He'll defend Kyle Rittenhouse next and we can complete a line on right-wing apologists bingo...

He's transparent as glass. We will be onto how Biden stole the 2020 election before long too.

 

[Villageswan]

Defend slavery? Where?

Defend slave owners? Where?

There is a difference between defending slavery and acknowledging its place in history.

Public executions would be a similar sort of thing - I don’t think we should be tearing down every picture of Henry VIII. Doesn’t mean I agree with him beheading his wives, something that by today’s standard would be horrific.

I don’t think we should be tearing down the colosseum and statues of Caesar either, which is essentially the two most famous slave connected things on the planet today.

If Pele owned a slave you may well dislike him as a person, however his place as one of the greatest footballers to ever live would remain untouched.

Jimmy Savile committed vile crimes that were abhorrent in the age he lived in, it was not a sign of the times but indeed someone actively going against societies standards to commit crime. That’s what I mean by the intelligence to distinguish.

Ok, so we are talking about the same incident in Charlottesville.

Absolutely no idea why you portrayed it the way you did then, because what you said happened and what we both know to have happened (as confirmed by your link) isn’t remotely similar.

I can only assume you were embellishing in the similar manner that I described is a penchant of the modern left. Is that fair?

Was it “a pack”, or was it one?

No-ones trying to tear down the colosseum. Total red herring but nice try.

Robert E Lee owned slaves, and fought and killed to defend his right to own slaves. If you think it's appropriate to have a public statue celebrating him, then you are defending his reputation. It would be interesting to know where you would draw the line at venerating slave owners. So far you've not stopped at Pele on account of his footballing talents.

I haven't embellished anything. If I did, you could've it pointed out but you didn't.

I didn’t say anyone was trying to tear down the Colosseum did I? I said I don’t think we should be.

Tearing down historical structures because they were involved with slaves is ludicrous. You aren’t defending slavery by making that point.

I’d be more interested in where you draw the line. Why would you not want a statue of Caesar in Rome destroyed for example?

Why would you not want great structures destroyed that used slaves to build them. These monuments such as the Colosseum still benefit financially from it too.

It seems that historical slavery is okay with you, unless it’s a structure you don’t particularly like. Am I right?

I did point out your embellishing. You described the murder in Charlottesville as “a pack of white supremacists”, where as it turns out it was one.

Correct me if I’m wrong. (I’m not).

 

[Villageswan]

Not to mention downplaying a murderer as 'just one bloke in a car'. He'll defend Kyle Rittenhouse next and we can complete a line on right-wing apologists bingo...

He's transparent as glass. We will be onto how Biden stole the 2020 election before long too.

Instead of predicting what I’ll talk about in the future in a futile attempt to draw away from the discussion at hand, it’s probably best that you get past this discussion first.

Misdirection won’t save you, I’m far too canny for that.

 

[Professor]

If you want to sit there and defend slavery and slave owners, and the people who fought and killed to defend it as an institution, have your fill. It suits you, along with your downplaying of neo-nazis and their anti-Semitic chanting in Charlottesville. Those "silly" neo-nazis eh? What are they like?

If it turned out Pele owned slaves it wouldn't change his footballing achievements but it would undoubtedly change how we discussed his legacy. Unless you're a creep who thinks people should be given carte blanche to do what they like, free of moral scrutiny, just as long as they work hard enough and succeed at something. Perhaps we should re-erect the statue of Jimmy Savile? After all, he raised millions and millions for charities.

This is the murder I'm referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottesville_car_attack

The perpetrator was a neo nazi, who attended the rally and rammed his car into peaceful protestors.

Defend slavery? Where?

Defend slave owners? Where?

There is a difference between defending slavery and acknowledging its place in history.

Public executions would be a similar sort of thing - I don’t think we should be tearing down every picture of Henry VIII. Doesn’t mean I agree with him beheading his wives, something that by today’s standard would be horrific.

I don’t think we should be tearing down the colosseum and statues of Caesar either, which is essentially the two most famous slave connected things on the planet today.

If Pele owned a slave you may well dislike him as a person, however his place as one of the greatest footballers to ever live would remain untouched.

Jimmy Savile committed vile crimes that were abhorrent in the age he lived in, it was not a sign of the times but indeed someone actively going against societies standards to commit crime. That’s what I mean by the intelligence to distinguish.

Ok, so we are talking about the same incident in Charlottesville.

Absolutely no idea why you portrayed it the way you did then, because what you said happened and what we both know to have happened (as confirmed by your link) isn’t remotely similar.

I can only assume you were embellishing in the similar manner that I described is a penchant of the modern left. Is that fair?

Was it “a pack”, or was it one?

Usual right-wing move of repeating lies until people think they are fact.

1. Leftist media-what a laugh. Neither are the Democratic Party left wing (they are a centre right Neo-liberal party by any normal definition) nor are the media that support them such as CNN or the NYT. There is no commitment to socialism. Where they differ from the GOP is in more social Liberalism.
2. Anyone flying the flags of the Confederacy is celebrating a regime for which the main raison d'être was the retention of slavery. Now there are other reasons around the secession of the confederacy but lets not pretend the political driving was by some pretty awful corrupt slave-owning politicians-step forward President of the Confederacy Andrew Jackson. Flying the flags of the Confederacy whether the well-known flag used from 1863 or the earlier 'stars and bars' is flying a symbol that condones slavery, as much as the swastika supports National Socialism.
3. Robert E. Lee. 'Uncle Robert/Uncle Bobby Lee". Yes, a very good soldier and rather a hostage of fortune in these events. Hero of the South, which given the rank awfulness of Jackson v Lincoln, is little surprise. Professional soldier, not a supporter of slavery, with those slaves who worked at Arlington being largely from his wife's family. I would not condemn Lee, he became a Confederacy General out of loyalty to his state rather than any political belief or support of slavery. The defeat at Gettysburg was of course the turning point from which the South could never recover. Also helped by incompetence in leadership of the Union Army until the likes U.S. Grant and Tecumseh Sherman. He fought a great rearguard but at huge cost to the South and ultimately the Union in the need for reconstruction.
4. Charlottesville. Yes, there is negative reporting of Trump around this. But frankly if you are not condemning Neo-Nazi White Supremacy groups (which would almost certainly be made a terror group in the UK) then you are complicit in their support. And its getting clearer these groups were prepared to support an insurrection. Albeit an incompetent one.
5. Strange how anything, even if actually true and verifiable (like many to these fact-checks) is left wing if does not agree with an extreme right wing, extreme evangelical Christian point of view.

Now if you want to express support of racist, homophobic misogynists that's fine.

But I'm guessing others may not be as tempered in their replies as me.

 

[AceJack]

No-ones trying to tear down the colosseum. Total red herring but nice try.

Robert E Lee owned slaves, and fought and killed to defend his right to own slaves. If you think it's appropriate to have a public statue celebrating him, then you are defending his reputation. It would be interesting to know where you would draw the line at venerating slave owners. So far you've not stopped at Pele on account of his footballing talents.

I haven't embellished anything. If I did, you could've it pointed out but you didn't.

I didn’t say anyone was trying to tear down the Colosseum did I? I said I don’t think we should be.

Tearing down historical structures because they were involved with slaves is ludicrous. You aren’t defending slavery by making that point.

I’d be more interested in where you draw the line. Why would you not want a statue of Caesar in Rome destroyed for example?

Why would you not want great structures destroyed that used slaves to build them. These monuments such as the Colosseum still benefit financially from it too.

It seems that historical slavery is okay with you, unless it’s a structure you don’t particularly like. Am I right?

I did point out your embellishing. You described the murder in Charlottesville as “a pack of white supremacists”, where as it turns out it was one.

Correct me if I’m wrong. (I’m not).

I'm talking about taking down a statue which venerates a man who fought and killed American's for the right to own slaves. Neo-nazis marched against the removal of that statue, chanting "jews will not replace us" in the process. Over the course of the protests, a neo nazi killed a woman in a terrorist attack. Fine people do not march with Neo-nazis. Right now, that's where I'm drawing a line. If you want to talk about other statues or monuments, send over some examples and we can have that conversation.

As it stands, you've agreed with the objectives of the white supremacists in not removing the statue, and downplayed their actions as silly. Everything else is obfuscation, trolling, or bad faith discussion on your part.

 

[AceJack]

Defend slavery? Where?

Defend slave owners? Where?

There is a difference between defending slavery and acknowledging its place in history.

Public executions would be a similar sort of thing - I don’t think we should be tearing down every picture of Henry VIII. Doesn’t mean I agree with him beheading his wives, something that by today’s standard would be horrific.

I don’t think we should be tearing down the colosseum and statues of Caesar either, which is essentially the two most famous slave connected things on the planet today.

If Pele owned a slave you may well dislike him as a person, however his place as one of the greatest footballers to ever live would remain untouched.

Jimmy Savile committed vile crimes that were abhorrent in the age he lived in, it was not a sign of the times but indeed someone actively going against societies standards to commit crime. That’s what I mean by the intelligence to distinguish.

Ok, so we are talking about the same incident in Charlottesville.

Absolutely no idea why you portrayed it the way you did then, because what you said happened and what we both know to have happened (as confirmed by your link) isn’t remotely similar.

I can only assume you were embellishing in the similar manner that I described is a penchant of the modern left. Is that fair?

Was it “a pack”, or was it one?

3. Robert E. Lee. 'Uncle Robert/Uncle Bobby Lee". Yes, a very good soldier and rather a hostage of fortune in these events. Hero of the South, which given the rank awfulness of Jackson v Lincoln, is little surprise. Professional soldier, not a supporter of slavery, with those slaves who worked at Arlington being largely from his wife's family. I would not condemn Lee, he became a Confederacy General out of loyalty to his state rather than any political belief or support of slavery.

You're really gonna argue that a man who owned slaves, fought and killed for his right to own slaves, enslaved free black Americans and took them back to the south over the course of the civil war, commanded troops who massacred black union soldiers, and said “the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power.” was not a supporter of slavery? Good one :lol:

 

[Villageswan]

Defend slavery? Where?

Defend slave owners? Where?

There is a difference between defending slavery and acknowledging its place in history.

Public executions would be a similar sort of thing - I don’t think we should be tearing down every picture of Henry VIII. Doesn’t mean I agree with him beheading his wives, something that by today’s standard would be horrific.

I don’t think we should be tearing down the colosseum and statues of Caesar either, which is essentially the two most famous slave connected things on the planet today.

If Pele owned a slave you may well dislike him as a person, however his place as one of the greatest footballers to ever live would remain untouched.

Jimmy Savile committed vile crimes that were abhorrent in the age he lived in, it was not a sign of the times but indeed someone actively going against societies standards to commit crime. That’s what I mean by the intelligence to distinguish.

Ok, so we are talking about the same incident in Charlottesville.

Absolutely no idea why you portrayed it the way you did then, because what you said happened and what we both know to have happened (as confirmed by your link) isn’t remotely similar.

I can only assume you were embellishing in the similar manner that I described is a penchant of the modern left. Is that fair?

Was it “a pack”, or was it one?

Usual right-wing move of repeating lies until people think they are fact.

1. Leftist media-what a laugh. Neither are the Democratic Party left wing (they are a centre right Neo-liberal party by any normal definition) nor are the media that support them such as CNN or the NYT. There is no commitment to socialism. Where they differ from the GOP is in more social Liberalism.
2. Anyone flying the flags of the Confederacy is celebrating a regime for which the main raison d'être was the retention of slavery. Now there are other reasons around the secession of the confederacy but lets not pretend the political driving was by some pretty awful corrupt slave-owning politicians-step forward President of the Confederacy Andrew Jackson. Flying the flags of the Confederacy whether the well-known flag used from 1863 or the earlier 'stars and bars' is flying a symbol that condones slavery, as much as the swastika supports National Socialism.
3. Robert E. Lee. 'Uncle Robert/Uncle Bobby Lee". Yes, a very good soldier and rather a hostage of fortune in these events. Hero of the South, which given the rank awfulness of Jackson v Lincoln, is little surprise. Professional soldier, not a supporter of slavery, with those slaves who worked at Arlington being largely from his wife's family. I would not condemn Lee, he became a Confederacy General out of loyalty to his state rather than any political belief or support of slavery. The defeat at Gettysburg was of course the turning point from which the South could never recover. Also helped by incompetence in leadership of the Union Army until the likes U.S. Grant and Tecumseh Sherman. He fought a great rearguard but at huge cost to the South and ultimately the Union in the need for reconstruction.
4. Charlottesville. Yes, there is negative reporting of Trump around this. But frankly if you are not condemning Neo-Nazi White Supremacy groups (which would almost certainly be made a terror group in the UK) then you are complicit in their support. And its getting clearer these groups were prepared to support an insurrection. Albeit an incompetent one.
5. Strange how anything, even if actually true and verifiable (like many to these fact-checks) is left wing if does not agree with an extreme right wing, extreme evangelical Christian point of view.

Now if you want to express support of racist, homophobic misogynists that's fine.

But I'm guessing others may not be as tempered in their replies as me.

1) Of course the main stream media is largely a leftist gaggle of propaganda when it comes to American politics. Take Fox out and who are the main players that are anything but left wing? Nobody.

2) That’s just rubbish. Far more defined the confederacy than slavery, what you are doing it putting your perception of a flag on what others perceive it as. It is absolutely nothing remotely similar to the swastika. That’s just ridiculous.

3) We agree, a superb military figure who wasn’t shamed by defeat. The North had 100,000 more men and outgunned the South in every conceivable way - yet it still took years to defeat them.

4) We agree again. But who wasn’t condemning Nazi groups is my point? People always trot out that he said there was fine people on both sides and intentionally stop there…. Trumps full quote regarding Charlottesville, immediately after that sentence, was as follows:-

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

How much clearer do you want him to be? It was simply a media stitch up, again. I’m sure you are balanced enough to recognise that? The quotes are available everywhere you care to look.

5) Who is supporting racists, homophobes and misogynists? You have lost me on that point.

 

[Villageswan]

I didn’t say anyone was trying to tear down the Colosseum did I? I said I don’t think we should be.

Tearing down historical structures because they were involved with slaves is ludicrous. You aren’t defending slavery by making that point.

I’d be more interested in where you draw the line. Why would you not want a statue of Caesar in Rome destroyed for example?

Why would you not want great structures destroyed that used slaves to build them. These monuments such as the Colosseum still benefit financially from it too.

It seems that historical slavery is okay with you, unless it’s a structure you don’t particularly like. Am I right?

I did point out your embellishing. You described the murder in Charlottesville as “a pack of white supremacists”, where as it turns out it was one.

Correct me if I’m wrong. (I’m not).

I'm talking about taking down a statue which venerates a man who fought and killed American's for the right to own slaves. Neo-nazis marched against the removal of that statue, chanting "jews will not replace us" in the process. Over the course of the protests, a neo nazi killed a woman in a terrorist attack. Fine people do not march with Neo-nazis. Right now, that's where I'm drawing a line. If you want to talk about other statues or monuments, send over some examples and we can have that conversation.

As it stands, you've agreed with the objectives of the white supremacists in not removing the statue, and downplayed their actions as silly. Everything else is obfuscation, trolling, or bad faith discussion on your part.

Again you are conflating and exaggerating.

First of all that statue was being vandalised, it was not an agreed removal. These things happen by committee not by vigilantes acting on behalf of everyone. It’s not how it works.

Second of all not everyone against the removal was a neo Nazi. As professor said above me, there are many that respect Lee as a key and prominent military mind, going back a couple of hundred of years to condemn by modern day standards is an intellectual fallacy.

Thirdly you are conflating “with” neo Nazis. They happened to agree on a subject, it doesn’t make them the same. Everyone is free to turn up to anywhere and stop something they disagree with, it doesn’t have to be for the same reasons or even have the same beliefs.

Downplayed what actions as silly? I have called their chanting silly and provocative, just as I have with Antifas chants towards the murder to police. It’s largely all talk for a reaction isn’t it, unless we are pretending otherwise.

The murder was abhorrent, but have noted it was not as you described which was “a pack of white supremacists” who people were marching with.

It was one, who nobody was marching with.

I understand it’s convenient to put a point of view in a box and call it trolling, unfortunately the points remain there largely unaddressed.