Kwasi Kwarteng's giveaway to the super rich

[Neath_Jack]

Would be interested to hear Lisa’s views. As I see it the government are saying unless you work in finance/banking you are pretty worthless. Being a professional means nothing: Scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers-all those things you were meant to aspire to. Next week I start mentoring as part of scheme to help kids from poor backgrounds towards careers in life sciences. I may was well tell them to deal drugs or rob houses as work hard to achieve. It’s shameful.

Without cleaners, labourers, delivery drivers, those people you listed would not be able to do their jobs either. Too much emphasis is put on academia in this, and other countries. Why people seem to only show respect to those that have high paid careers baffle me. Their shit stinks the same as everyone elses.

 

[Professor]

Would be interested to hear Lisa’s views. As I see it the government are saying unless you work in finance/banking you are pretty worthless. Being a professional means nothing: Scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers-all those things you were meant to aspire to. Next week I start mentoring as part of scheme to help kids from poor backgrounds towards careers in life sciences. I may was well tell them to deal drugs or rob houses as work hard to achieve. It’s shameful.

Without cleaners, labourers, delivery drivers, those people you listed would not be able to do their jobs either. Too much emphasis is put on academia in this, and other countries. Why people seem to only show respect to those that have high paid careers baffle me. Their s**t stinks the same as everyone elses.

Of course not and everyone should have a living wage. But there is nothing wrong with aspiration.
The point being if you come from a working class background it’s already an uphill battle. The respect was there because for a kid to achieve that required some hard work, dedication and commitment. Since when did spivery become more important?

 

[Neath_Jack]

Without cleaners, labourers, delivery drivers, those people you listed would not be able to do their jobs either. Too much emphasis is put on academia in this, and other countries. Why people seem to only show respect to those that have high paid careers baffle me. Their s**t stinks the same as everyone elses.

Of course not and everyone should have a living wage. But there is nothing wrong with aspiration.
The point being if you come from a working class background it’s already an uphill battle. The respect was there because for a kid to achieve that required some hard work, dedication and commitment. Since when did spivery become more important?

Who said anything about spivery? Is it not hard work being a labourer, a cleaner or a driver? It's horses for courses my friend. A living wage? I think all working people deserve more than a living wage, let's make sure that the wage gap is closed between those that attended university, and those that haven't. Because one lot won't be able to operate without the other lot, AND vice versa.

 

[legoman]

I'm no supporter of this government, God knows. But I heard an interesting fact on LBC today. If I heard correctly, the banking and finance industry in this country contributes 10% of the overall UK tax take. That's feckin significant and like it or not, if the UK were to lose its position in the sector then banks and financiers will sod off to NY or HK, Singapore etc and our tax income will be well and truly shafted. It's not palatable I agree but that's the reality.

I don't know the answers as I'm just not astute enough but I do recognise that the costs to the UK of covid and the war in Ukraine have got to be covered somehow and I for one would take the pain in relation to what Putin is doing if it means he will be defeated.

 

[Jack2jack]

I'm not even going to bother, we knew what was coming.
If folk haven't got the message by now, there no hope for them.
Wake up people.

She said she was gonna sort out the economy and especially the energy crisis and help people with the cost of living and she's done the fuking opposite.

The energy price cap is a red herring, the cap is on the energy unit price not the overall annual cost.

Tory through and through, dreadful , not even disguising the fact that it was all about the rich, it's in plain view, and having the cheek to say that by helping the rich, the less well off will also be better off, utter nonsense. Hopefully it's not going to last much longer, problem is, at what cost.

 

[Professor]

Of course not and everyone should have a living wage. But there is nothing wrong with aspiration.
The point being if you come from a working class background it’s already an uphill battle. The respect was there because for a kid to achieve that required some hard work, dedication and commitment. Since when did spivery become more important?

Who said anything about spivery? Is it not hard work being a labourer, a cleaner or a driver? It's horses for courses my friend. A living wage? I think all working people deserve more than a living wage, let's make sure that the wage gap is closed between those that attended university, and those that haven't. Because one lot won't be able to operate without the other lot, AND vice versa.

Except there is no gap. Nurses, paramedics, the lab techs who test your blood sample are all graduates as nearly half of people now go to university. Not many of those are well paid considering the 30k debt that fees alone bring. It’s should not be an argument that someone earning six times the starting salary of a nurse gets a big tax cut. The nurse getting next to nothing

 

[Professor]

I'm no supporter of this government, God knows. But I heard an interesting fact on LBC today. If I heard correctly, the banking and finance industry in this country contributes 10% of the overall UK tax take. That's feckin significant and like it or not, if the UK were to lose its position in the sector then banks and financiers will sod off to NY or HK, Singapore etc and our tax income will be well and truly shafted. It's not palatable I agree but that's the reality.

I don't know the answers as I'm just not astute enough but I do recognise that the costs to the UK of covid and the war in Ukraine have got to be covered somehow and I for one would take the pain in relation to what Putin is doing if it means he will be defeated.

It’s a fair point -but leaving the Eli was a bigger issue for financial services. London is still big, but has lost a lot of Eu business. But does a million plus earner really need an extra 50k to the detriment of the rest of us.

 

[Niigata Jack]

I'm no supporter of this government, God knows. But I heard an interesting fact on LBC today. If I heard correctly, the banking and finance industry in this country contributes 10% of the overall UK tax take. That's feckin significant and like it or not, if the UK were to lose its position in the sector then banks and financiers will sod off to NY or HK, Singapore etc and our tax income will be well and truly shafted. It's not palatable I agree but that's the reality.

I don't know the answers as I'm just not astute enough but I do recognise that the costs to the UK of covid and the war in Ukraine have got to be covered somehow and I for one would take the pain in relation to what Putin is doing if it means he will be defeated.

Only way Putin gets defeated is if the Russian people [well the military] turn on him, the longer this war goes on the greater the chance of it happening, its sort of starting now with people of fighting age starting to flea the country rather than get called up, Ukraine won't win this war on their own and the risks are to great for the west to get fully involved the manic will resort to Nuclear weapons before that happens, he's protected by to many brainwashed sidekicks to get overthrown in my opinion.

The biggest risk to another world war is China attacking Taiwan, that's a massive game changer, you got that little fat c@@t in North Korea dying for somin to kickoff as well.

 

[AceJack]

I'm no supporter of this government, God knows. But I heard an interesting fact on LBC today. If I heard correctly, the banking and finance industry in this country contributes 10% of the overall UK tax take. That's feckin significant and like it or not, if the UK were to lose its position in the sector then banks and financiers will sod off to NY or HK, Singapore etc and our tax income will be well and truly shafted. It's not palatable I agree but that's the reality.

I don't know the answers as I'm just not astute enough but I do recognise that the costs to the UK of covid and the war in Ukraine have got to be covered somehow and I for one would take the pain in relation to what Putin is doing if it means he will be defeated.

The first part of your post is a good argument against Brexit.

The second part of your post is a good argument against the actions the government have taken today.

 

[Neath_Jack]

Who said anything about spivery? Is it not hard work being a labourer, a cleaner or a driver? It's horses for courses my friend. A living wage? I think all working people deserve more than a living wage, let's make sure that the wage gap is closed between those that attended university, and those that haven't. Because one lot won't be able to operate without the other lot, AND vice versa.

Except there is no gap. Nurses, paramedics, the lab techs who test your blood sample are all graduates as nearly half of people now go to university. Not many of those are well paid considering the 30k debt that fees alone bring. It’s should not be an argument that someone earning six times the starting salary of a nurse gets a big tax cut. The nurse getting next to nothing

There is a massive gap between a cleaner, a carer a porter etc etc. University education isn't all that, and doesn't make them entitled to any more respect than those that didn't attend, or at least it shouldn't. It isn't an argument for the super rich getting the big tax break, I never suggested it should. But what get's up my nose as much as the super rich, is Uni educated people being held up as the hard done by.

 

[JackSomething]

Except there is no gap. Nurses, paramedics, the lab techs who test your blood sample are all graduates as nearly half of people now go to university. Not many of those are well paid considering the 30k debt that fees alone bring. It’s should not be an argument that someone earning six times the starting salary of a nurse gets a big tax cut. The nurse getting next to nothing

There is a massive gap between a cleaner, a carer a porter etc etc. University education isn't all that, and doesn't make them entitled to any more respect than those that didn't attend, or at least it shouldn't. It isn't an argument for the super rich getting the big tax break, I never suggested it should. But what get's up my nose as much as the super rich, is Uni educated people being held up as the hard done by.

To use Prof's example of a nurse, being one requires extensive education and training due to how complicated a job it is. This is a significant financial outlay (earning less while studying, loans and fees that take years to pay off). While cleaners, carer and porters almost certainly work as hard as nurses, they are jobs that someone can start with minimal training and experience. A 16 year old school leaver could start doing one of those roles immediately and learn on the job.

So if the entry requirements for a job are far higher, then it's common sense that it should pay more than a job with minimum entry requirements.

I do think that we long ago past the tipping point of numbers going on to university and the amount of courses that don't lead to a career. My History degree from 20+ years ago has nothing to do with any of the jobs I've done since, except a couple that required you to be educated to degree level for seemingly no reason. I worked low-paid jobs for years after leaving university and don't expect anyone to feel sympathy for me. It was my choice to go and do a degree with no discernible career path because I wanted to enjoy the social life.

 

[Neath_Jack]

There is a massive gap between a cleaner, a carer a porter etc etc. University education isn't all that, and doesn't make them entitled to any more respect than those that didn't attend, or at least it shouldn't. It isn't an argument for the super rich getting the big tax break, I never suggested it should. But what get's up my nose as much as the super rich, is Uni educated people being held up as the hard done by.

To use Prof's example of a nurse, being one requires extensive education and training due to how complicated a job it is. This is a significant financial outlay (earning less while studying, loans and fees that take years to pay off). While cleaners, carer and porters almost certainly work as hard as nurses, they are jobs that someone can start with minimal training and experience. A 16 year old school leaver could start doing one of those roles immediately and learn on the job.

So if the entry requirements for a job are far higher, then it's common sense that it should pay more than a job with minimum entry requirements.

I do think that we long ago past the tipping point of numbers going on to university and the amount of courses that don't lead to a career. My History degree from 20+ years ago has nothing to do with any of the jobs I've done since, except a couple that required you to be educated to degree level for seemingly no reason. I worked low-paid jobs for years after leaving university and don't expect anyone to feel sympathy for me. It was my choice to go and do a degree with no discernible career path because I wanted to enjoy the social life.

With respect, i didn't need your first two paragraph explanation, what i took umbrage to was the Prof wrote:

"As I see it the government are saying unless you work in finance/banking you are pretty worthless. Being a professional means nothing: Scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers-all those things you were meant to aspire to."

So he was having a little pop at bankers / financers, whilst holding up Uni educated occupations. There are far worse off people than those he mentioned, those at the perceived bottom of the ladder, without who, the country would literally fall to it's knees. Some people are suited to education and further education, others are not. I don't like, in fact hate, education snobbery. Really gets under my skin, one of those subjects that make me see red really quick.

 

[Professor]

There is a massive gap between a cleaner, a carer a porter etc etc. University education isn't all that, and doesn't make them entitled to any more respect than those that didn't attend, or at least it shouldn't. It isn't an argument for the super rich getting the big tax break, I never suggested it should. But what get's up my nose as much as the super rich, is Uni educated people being held up as the hard done by.

To use Prof's example of a nurse, being one requires extensive education and training due to how complicated a job it is. This is a significant financial outlay (earning less while studying, loans and fees that take years to pay off). While cleaners, carer and porters almost certainly work as hard as nurses, they are jobs that someone can start with minimal training and experience. A 16 year old school leaver could start doing one of those roles immediately and learn on the job.

So if the entry requirements for a job are far higher, then it's common sense that it should pay more than a job with minimum entry requirements.

I do think that we long ago past the tipping point of numbers going on to university and the amount of courses that don't lead to a career. My History degree from 20+ years ago has nothing to do with any of the jobs I've done since, except a couple that required you to be educated to degree level for seemingly no reason. I worked low-paid jobs for years after leaving university and don't expect anyone to feel sympathy for me. It was my choice to go and do a degree with no discernible career path because I wanted to enjoy the social life.

Well the horse bolted in the 1990s as far as Universities go, as soon as the rules were relaxed in 1992 the numbers of places and institutions called universities rose exponentially.Virtually all professions are now graduate entry whereas before they may have offered routes in at 16 or 18 the only alternative way in are through access and foundation programmes. The loss of HND/HNC routes, particularly through day release in area like engineering, lab techs etc was a bad mistake. We fail as nation on vocational education and suffer as consequence with too many low paid and unskilled jobs being the route for too many who could and should be allowed to do better-the whole point of aspiration. Should a qualified Nurse be paid more than a Health Care Assistant-yes there is a world apart in responsibility and training. HCA pay is in the region of 18-24K, qualified nurses most typically earn 25-32K, though through additional training and experience this can rise higher. It fits in with the general trend that average graduate pay is 36K and non graduate 26K. Note that the average salary for someone with a degree is lower than the higher tax rate and more than four times below the current highest rate at 45%.

If you go down my route, most school friends who left at 16 or 18 were considerably better off than me until I reached my 40s. I was 31 getting married and buying a house and still have a relatively modest house now. When my kids finish university/school in coming years and the mortgage is paid I will be very comfortable and should be OK for a decent retirement but I will never be wealthy. A Tory government does tend to make me richer, but why be personally wealth in country that is so impoverished. Sniping at graduate professionals is exactly what they want. It deflects from the crooks for whom suffering of the many is more money in their pockets.

 

[Professor]

To use Prof's example of a nurse, being one requires extensive education and training due to how complicated a job it is. This is a significant financial outlay (earning less while studying, loans and fees that take years to pay off). While cleaners, carer and porters almost certainly work as hard as nurses, they are jobs that someone can start with minimal training and experience. A 16 year old school leaver could start doing one of those roles immediately and learn on the job.

So if the entry requirements for a job are far higher, then it's common sense that it should pay more than a job with minimum entry requirements.

I do think that we long ago past the tipping point of numbers going on to university and the amount of courses that don't lead to a career. My History degree from 20+ years ago has nothing to do with any of the jobs I've done since, except a couple that required you to be educated to degree level for seemingly no reason. I worked low-paid jobs for years after leaving university and don't expect anyone to feel sympathy for me. It was my choice to go and do a degree with no discernible career path because I wanted to enjoy the social life.

With respect, i didn't need your first two paragraph explanation, what i took umbrage to was the Prof wrote:

"As I see it the government are saying unless you work in finance/banking you are pretty worthless. Being a professional means nothing: Scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers-all those things you were meant to aspire to."

So he was having a little pop at bankers / financers, whilst holding up Uni educated occupations. There are far worse off people than those he mentioned, those at the perceived bottom of the ladder, without who, the country would literally fall to it's knees. Some people are suited to education and further education, others are not. I don't like, in fact hate, education snobbery. Really gets under my skin, one of those subjects that make me see red really quick.

Think about what I wrote. Now I don't know you or your circumstances and will not presume to know. I have nothing against you and fundamentally we are agreeing that those most impacted are (again) those on low income or benefits. I'm quite happy to pay tax to support these people, not to underpin tax cuts of 50K a year for the richest.

The point is when I start mentoring the student I am assigned next week, who may well be the son or daughter of a cleaner or labourer what am I mean to say? Yes, spend the next decade working your backside off to become a doctor, nurse or even a bloody Professor (though that takes even longer) you can do it, you can aspire to this. Mam and dad don't want you to be a labourer, porter or cleaner, they want you to follow a dream. Do you want to crush such dreams? It seems to me the government do. They want Kian or Ellie or Sian or Rhys to stay a labourer, a cleaner, a hairdresser. That's why we valued education. As a route to escape the colliery, the factory, the foundry. That's the route I was able to take. 'Libraries gave us power' indeed. Single parent family and Valleys Comp. That's why I want to help these kids.

The question is what's the reward? Of course these are not all financial, but aspiration should have some reward. The average junior doctor salary is around 26K, they can (after 20 years experience at consultant level) earn 120K in the NHS as a senior consultant. These are not excessive wages for the job. I say this to illustrate how few are benefitting here. Personally, to me it would be fairer to give everyone the same allowance to get through the current cost of living crisis

 

[JustJack]

The borrowing of money to give to the rich, that the poor will have to pay back.

C**ts