Grimes...

[bytholwyn]

It’s broken, trust me. The bloke only scored about 8 times for us, in what world is that above average. It’s bollocks, go to a game and watch it, you’ll get far more enjoyment than crunching numbers.

Compared to other defensive midfielders 4 goals in a season is above average. You can argue with reality as long as you like, but facts are facts. LoB scored 1 goal in his 16 games. Even that meagre return is 59th percentile on a per 90 minutes basis. In other words very few DMs score goals. Especially when they are deployed deep like Grimes was.

 

[Neath_Jack]

Compared to other defensive midfielders 4 goals in a season is above average. You can argue with reality as long as you like, but facts are facts. LoB scored 1 goal in his 16 games. Even that meagre return is 59th percentile on a per 90 minutes basis. In other words very few DMs score goals. Especially when they are deployed deep like Grimes was.

Wyn, I’m sure you’re a lovely chap, but quoting stats, and percentiles at me is one of the most pointless things you could do with your time. I go to watch the football played on the grass in front of me, I can see with my working eyes when a player has played well or not, whether they bring something to the team or not. I don’t need a computer to do that for me, but the day I do will be the day I pack it all in.

 

[A4Jack]

Compared to other defensive midfielders 4 goals in a season is above average. You can argue with reality as long as you like, but facts are facts. LoB scored 1 goal in his 16 games. Even that meagre return is 59th percentile on a per 90 minutes basis. In other words very few DMs score goals. Especially when they are deployed deep like Grimes was.

To be fair he was the penalty taker to make up those goals.

 

[swansvalleyjack]

Sorry these are just facts, plain facts. You can choose your opinions not your facts, unless you're called Donald Trump.

I've long supported the Swans and my eyes tell me what's obvious, with or without facts.

While Grimes has been consistent in 1. his regularity of appearances, season in season out, and 2. his high passing stats ( mainly sideways & backwards) he has most certainly been a brake on creative and forward play.

I started this thread by copying in an early and insightful comment by a Coventry supporter on Grimes - and he is spot on.

" He’s great on the ball, he just receives it way too deep and is not adventurous enough - and receiving the ball deeper than the CB’s against a low block and then slowing it down is mental".

But it's not all his fault with us - the tactics of Martin and Williams in particular found their perfect player in Grimes..and that coupled with his favoured instincts, were a match made in heaven for the three of them. But by god...so stifling and boring.

I'm surprised that Lampard is letting him play the same way tbh

 

[Swans Jack]

Let's get real here people. If Grimes was still with us, I have 0 doubt that Sheehan would of got the results he did. Grimes would of sat back and pass back. Built those stats up and would of been praised for it. Lewis O Brien reminded everyone why we needed to move on and become a more direct team.

 

[Swansea93]

As much as Potter, Cooper & Martin loved Grimes and waxed about him, none of them went in for him, Martin wanted Downes more than Grimes.

 

[Dr. Winston]

I can see with my working eyes when a player has played well or not, whether they bring something to the team or not. I don’t need a computer to do that for me, but the day I do will be the day I pack it all in.

 

[Jack2jack]

Let's get real here people. If Grimes was still with us, I have 0 doubt that Sheehan would of got the results he did. Grimes would of sat back and pass back. Built those stats up and would of been praised for it. Lewis O Brien reminded everyone why we needed to move on and become a more direct team.

Innit basically Grimes was garbage.

 

[Dr. Winston]

As much as Potter, Cooper & Martin loved Grimes and waxed about him, none of them went in for him, Martin wanted Downes more than Grimes.

And this is the inconvenient truth that all those who have spent the last ten years telling us how indispensable Grimes is have to face.

Not once has anyone further up the pyramid ever made a serious attempt to sign him. Not even the managers who lauded him when they were here bothered.

The closest anyone came before Cov was Fulham when they were last at this level, and they weren't dull enough to offer him what we were, even when they could have had him for free.

 

[Swans Jack]

And this is the inconvenient truth that all those who have spent the last ten years telling us how indispensable Grimes is have to face.

Not once has anyone further up the pyramid ever made a serious attempt to sign him. Not even the managers who lauded him when they were here bothered.

The closest anyone came before Cov was Fulham when they were last at this level, and they weren't dull enough to offer him what we were, even when they could have had him for free.

I remember Grimes saying a few years ago on Swans TV he enjoyed barbering. - No Lie. Maybe he felt that he was losing custom when he knew Williams was staying at the club and his hair was never coming back! Maybe that's why Grimes liked Martin? Just look at that hair

 

[bakajack]

Compared to other defensive midfielders 4 goals in a season is above average. You can argue with reality as long as you like, but facts are facts. LoB scored 1 goal in his 16 games. Even that meagre return is 59th percentile on a per 90 minutes basis. In other words very few DMs score goals. Especially when they are deployed deep like Grimes was.

His goal stats are padded by the fact that he was the club penalty taker
As are his assist stats when he was the de facto corner taker

 

[bytholwyn]

His goal stats are padded by the fact that he was the club penalty taker
As are his assist stats when he was the de facto corner taker

Even if you dismiss penalties and corners (and why would you?) he's still well ahead of LoB on goals and expected assists per 90. LoB was a good fit for what was needed when Sheehan took over - stiffening the defence, but Grimes' track record creatively is much stronger.

 

[bytholwyn]

And this is the inconvenient truth that all those who have spent the last ten years telling us how indispensable Grimes is have to face.

Not once has anyone further up the pyramid ever made a serious attempt to sign him. Not even the managers who lauded him when they were here bothered.

The closest anyone came before Cov was Fulham when they were last at this level, and they weren't dull enough to offer him what we were, even when they could have had him for free.

Bit of a straw man argument that. You could say pretty much the same about LoB. A handful of games at Premier League level. What Grimes' and LoB have in common is that both are top level performers at Championship level but not deemed good enough for the Premier League. No shame in that. In Grimes' case his lack of pace and modest defensive stats are probably his main limitations. With LoB it's his limited offensive game.

 

[Swans Jack]

Even if you dismiss penalties and corners (and why would you?) he's still well ahead of LoB on goals and expected assists per 90. LoB was a good fit for what was needed when Sheehan took over - stiffening the defence, but Grimes' track record creatively is much stronger.

Putting LOB aside, in your opinion. And genuine question, would you take Grimes back or have him in place than a player like LOB? Basically in my opinion, putting stats aside can you not see how more creative we have become since he has gone and better on field captancy?

 

[bytholwyn]

Putting LOB aside, in your opinion. And genuine question, would you take Grimes back or have him in place than a player like LOB? Basically in my opinion, putting stats aside can you not see how more creative we have become since he has gone and better on field captancy?

I don't think we have become a lot more creative, the massive improvement has been defensive, and LoB has contributed significantly to that. With the way that Sheehan seems to want us to play LoB is definitely a better fit overall. It doesn't follow that Grimes was bad, because he objectively wasn't, but LoB suits a more dynamic approach in and out of possession.

Rather than focussing on the past it would be far more productive to suggest how we replace LoB if we can't secure his return. When Sheehan talked about getting a balance in the squad with older heads I'm sure the DM position was in the forefront of his mind. Would he prefer a journeyman like Ledson, available on a free, over an inexperienced youngster with a higher ceiling? I don't know the answer, but that DM position (and we need two) will, in my opinion, play a massive part in determining how we fare next season.