Grimes...

[Swansea93]

LoB signed from Huddersfield. Cooper didn't manage them.

Correct, that’s why I said a former manager signed LOB instead of Grimes to play in the Premier League.

 

[bytholwyn]

Correct, that’s why I said a former manager signed LOB instead of Grimes to play in the Premier League.

Ok, I misunderstood what you meant by former manager.

 

[jack_lord]

Football reduced to numbers. Blindingly tedious.

Swansea City 3 Cardiff City 0. Cardiff City 0 Swansea City 4.
Sometimes those numbers are far from tedious

 

[Andrew - North Hill]

Swansea City 3 Cardiff City 0. Cardiff City 0 Swansea City 4.
Sometimes those numbers are far from tedious

Can I shock you? Despite what I said before, I like numbers

 

[cmajack]

Football reduced to numbers. Blindingly tedious.

Thought the only numbers that really mattered were goals for and against. Just hope the Swans got more For than the other team.

 

[Swans Jack]

At home with the Grimes’s

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Beard matched as well.

 

[monmouth]

Right then let’s put all this to bed for once and for all. I’ve read your posts before and you’re definitely not a troller but my God you seem to have been totally captivated by the Grimes myth.

You’re actually saying on one hand that you believe that Grimes would have had the same impact on results whilst simultaneously claiming the main improvement has been in defence since Sheehan came in.

One big difference - LOB was more of a box to box player in my eyes (could be wrong but he certainly didn’t seem to be a CDM or holding MF player).

You say the reason for our improvement is our defence is much better

The reason our defence is better is plain for all to see - we’re playing football in the opposition’s half rather than along our own 18 yard line. Luke Williams tactics aside Grimes showed zero desire to do anything other than receive the ball from his defenders and pass it straight back to them, quite often putting them into trouble and often leading to us conceding goals. He could have carried the ball forward but didn’t have the necessary skills to do so.

He could only use his left foot - the right was only for standing on - and this caused him to need extra time on the ball to get it onto his left by which time he’d be closed down and try to pass backwards to his defenders who were then themselves under pressure.

O’Brien has infinitely better ball skills than Grimes , can use both feet if needed and can find space to carry the ball into relieving any defensive pressure. Not only that his eye for players in space and vision in general is far superior to Grimes’.

LOB could change games, Grimes sadly not. LOB had better relations with his team mates - Grimes left with only two or three of the entire squad coming to see him off. That speaks volumes for me and the difference on the pitch since he’s gone has been night and day.

I cannot see that even pressed to play in the LOB role Grimes would never have had the same impact. He was far too slow in mind and body to have that kind of impact and was the most passive passionless player I think I’ve seen. No aggression or fire in him at all!

You mention assists - Grimes was corner and free kick taker and most of the time couldn’t clear his first man. When he did a few assists would obviously come but nowhere near as many as he should have achieved.

O’Brien might not have the direct assists put his aggressive foward thinking would have provided the ball for those who did.

The final evidence is what we have seen on the pitch, Franco doing the DM and managing to get way further forward than grimes ever did and LOB pushing further on have been a delight to watch and five wins on the bounce resulted. We had a real cohesion as a team and I regret to say Grimes would not have aided that in any way. Dr Winston hit the nail on the head - nobody wanted Grimes on a free - the day Coventry offered £4 million I fell off my chair. Read their forums now and it’s less “we robbed Swansea’s best player” and more “he’s not doing much us he?”.

We robbed them pure and simple. And now we are really seeing the fruits of that positively impact our team’s all round game and much improved performances.

All respect to you but you were in a 40 % minority at time of sale as Grimes evangelicals but now that minority must be 1 to 2 percent at best. People have seen the difference - you have too but for some reason you still maintain that it would have been exactly the same if Matty had stayed. No, it definitely would not!

And as for focussing on the past to be honest I’d rather forget he ever pulled a Swans shirt on. Overly harsh? Yes but that’s my feelings for the player - one that did virtually nothing while he was here and got a sainthood out of it!

Wyn’s a decent poster but he’s a total statto. Hence the Grimesitis. Anyone that’s watched Grimes without looking at stats knows he is an anchor and a rock, in the sense he does a solid job but weighs the team down and rarely moves his position. As for creativity and (non penalty) goals, how does the song go? ‘Once, just once, in a very blue moon’. Grimes is not a bad player, but he’s not a particularly good one either, and he’s never a captain or leader. No loss.

 

[JackSomething]

Grimes is a 6 LoB an 8. Apples and oranges. Despite that LoB only scored 1 for us, which is the relevant statistic.

Yet O'Brien's sample size is far too small to make that an appropriate comparison. But since you insist:

O'Brien - A goal every 16 games.
Grimes - A goal every 21 games (including penalties)

So O'Brien is clearly the superior goal threat.

 

[bytholwyn]

Yet O'Brien's sample size is far too small to make that an appropriate comparison. But since you insist:

O'Brien - A goal every 16 games.
Grimes - A goal every 21 games (including penalties)

So O'Brien is clearly the superior goal threat.

Since the 2018/19 season LoB has 16 Grimes has 17, pretty much identical. The most LoB has had in a season is 3, Grimes has 5 twice. Neither prolific, but that's to be expected for Grimes as a DM. LoB is an 8 so you'd expect more. But his strongest asset is his defensive work. He had a stellar season in 21/22 when his defensive stats were off the chart. This helped seal the move to Forest, which was a step too far. Objectively both are very good players at Championship level.

By the way, Grimes has created 57 chances (94th percentile) from 45 games, LoB 9 from 16.

 

[bytholwyn]

Wyn’s a decent poster but he’s a total statto. Hence the Grimesitis. Anyone that’s watched Grimes without looking at stats knows he is an anchor and a rock, in the sense he does a solid job but weighs the team down and rarely moves his position. As for creativity and (non penalty) goals, how does the song go? ‘Once, just once, in a very blue moon’. Grimes is not a bad player, but he’s not a particularly good one either, and he’s never a captain or leader. No loss.

I aspire to strike a balance between subjectivity and objective facts. I may not get the balance right but the data often has an interesting story to tell. It's easy to be focused too much on one aspect of a player's performance and ignore the underlying data. Take Tymon as an example. His defending was very poor under Williams and he was regularly called out for it, and justifiably so. But at the same time his attacking stats were ignored or underplayed. His expected assists this season were third best in the league for all players, ahead of a lot of highly regarded wingers. So a rounded opinion of Tymon would acknowledge his weaknesses (which Sheehan has properly reduced by giving him better protection) whilst also giving him credit for his crossing excellence. Same goes for Ronald. Inconsistent with his crosses but excellent defensive stats (probably best in league for a winger). Its only when I see the stats that I sometimes realise just how good/bad a player is, especially those things that one doesn't focus on (e.g. defensive qualities in an attacker, and attacking ones in a defender).

 

[Itchysphincter]

To see the best of a supporting midfielder like Grimes he needs to play alongside a maverick - like a Leroy Fer, or a Joe Allen a his best pulling the strings, or even Jon Jon Shevley, but unless you have the stardust of a Ferrie Bodde the Grimes roles doesn’t lend itself well to being your main creative outlet. Grimes is a cracking footballer but the only way he can run games is by slowing them down and he’s not dynamic enough to change games, that’s why a player like LOB will always be more desirable and valuable.

 

[DJack]

Ok, just so I can contribute to the thread before I go off topic...

I liked Grimes but he caused way more issues than he solved for us. Just above me Itchy encapsulated it better than I could.

Going off topic... The standard of discourse between old and new posters, on an emotive topic, whilst in almost complete disagreement, without throwing toys out of the pram nor getting huffy is a joy to read. Thank you all...but if it did descend into a dust up I'd enjoy that also

 

[bytholwyn]

To see the best of a supporting midfielder like Grimes he needs to play alongside a maverick - like a Leroy Fer, or a Joe Allen a his best pulling the strings, or even Jon Jon Shevley, but unless you have the stardust of a Ferrie Bodde the Grimes roles doesn’t lend itself well to being your main creative outlet. Grimes is a cracking footballer but the only way he can run games is by slowing them down and he’s not dynamic enough to change games, that’s why a player like LOB will always be more desirable and valuable.

I agree with the broad thrust of your argument. The manager's perspective also plays a big part, so that even if you have a good combination (say Franco and Grimes) they still need to be instructed in a way that makes good use of their strengths. Williams had a weird mishmash if slow tempo build with a willingness to surrender possession with long balls to the wings. A manager playing a shorter passing game, through the middle would get a different result from the same players. To an extent we've seen that from Sheehan, although it's still not clear what the Sheehan game plan is offensively.

 

[Bluenile]

Just like that poster on the Coventry forum I find myself very much in the minority on Grimes.

His average Fotmob rating has been above 7 in each one of the last 7 seasons. I doubt there is another player in the Championship with that sort of consistency of performance. In the last 5 years his average has been 7.2 or better, putting him in the top 5 per cent in the league. And though pass completion, touches and pass accuracy have played their part in achieving those figures, he's above average this season alone on goals, expected goals, shots, shots on target, assists, expected assists (98th percentile), accurate long balls, chances created (94th percentile), successful crosses, successful dribbles, recoveries.

I understand that people have tired of low tempo football, and I share that sentiment, and Grimes played his part in that, but it's just too easy to pile on now that he's left. Some sort of objectivity and fair-mindedness is never a bad thing.

You seem to like a stat, or 10? . . . . . . .

 

[Swansea93]

I remember Grimes saying a few years ago on Swans TV he enjoyed barbering. - No Lie. Maybe he felt that he was losing custom when he knew Williams was staying at the club and his hair was never coming back! Maybe that's why Grimes liked Martin? Just look at that hair

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