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Grimes...

Even if you dismiss penalties and corners (and why would you?) he's still well ahead of LoB on goals and expected assists per 90. LoB was a good fit for what was needed when Sheehan took over - stiffening the defence, but Grimes' track record creatively is much stronger.

Mate, I'm with you on stats/analytics having their place in football when they're used correctly. But issues like this and saying we shouldn't buy someone because of their rating on some website are why people think they're pointless.

Lewis O'Brien's 16 games for us were more impressive than a great many of Grimes' 333 games for us. That's pretty clear and obvious even to me, someone who generally liked Grimes.

Also comparing them on goal record for us is a fallacy given O'Brien's low sample size. If we compare whole careers:

Grimes - 27 goals in 484 games (a goal every 17.9 games)
O'Brien - 15 goals in 265 games (a goal every 17.6 games)

No idea if O'Brien has scored any penalties. If not, he's clearly a better goal scorer from open play than Grimes.
 
I don't think we have become a lot more creative, the massive improvement has been defensive, and LoB has contributed significantly to that. With the way that Sheehan seems to want us to play LoB is definitely a better fit overall. It doesn't follow that Grimes was bad, because he objectively wasn't, but LoB suits a more dynamic approach in and out of possession.

Rather than focussing on the past it would be far more productive to suggest how we replace LoB if we can't secure his return. When Sheehan talked about getting a balance in the squad with older heads I'm sure the DM position was in the forefront of his mind. Would he prefer a journeyman like Ledson, available on a free, over an inexperienced youngster with a higher ceiling? I don't know the answer, but that DM position (and we need two) will, in my opinion, play a massive part in determining how we fare next season.
I would agree about defense. Maybe the term I should of used was, we play with more positivity? All I know is Grimes like Fulton are players that spent more time passing back than forwards. You can say that, this is the coach problem, but I'm not fully convinced. Grimes is starting to repeat his traits at Coventry. With us he was the sole person to take the ball. Again, coaching issues or not. You could see when Grimes left how the team had 0 idea on how to play out. Then LOB came in and added different take. Grimes hindered in my opinion the team as a whole and his performance dictated if we lost or won. Now we have team who isn't reliant on 1 player. As for LOB, I am in the opinion that if done right we can find a player even better and more creative to fill that void while not breaking the bank.
 
I don't think we have become a lot more creative, the massive improvement has been defensive, and LoB has contributed significantly to that. With the way that Sheehan seems to want us to play LoB is definitely a better fit overall. It doesn't follow that Grimes was bad, because he objectively wasn't, but LoB suits a more dynamic approach in and out of possession.

Rather than focussing on the past it would be far more productive to suggest how we replace LoB if we can't secure his return. When Sheehan talked about getting a balance in the squad with older heads I'm sure the DM position was in the forefront of his mind. Would he prefer a journeyman like Ledson, available on a free, over an inexperienced youngster with a higher ceiling? I don't know the answer, but that DM position (and we need two) will, in my opinion, play a massive part in determining how we fare next season.

Right then let’s put all this to bed for once and for all. I’ve read your posts before and you’re definitely not a troller but my God you seem to have been totally captivated by the Grimes myth.

You’re actually saying on one hand that you believe that Grimes would have had the same impact on results whilst simultaneously claiming the main improvement has been in defence since Sheehan came in.

One big difference - LOB was more of a box to box player in my eyes (could be wrong but he certainly didn’t seem to be a CDM or holding MF player).

You say the reason for our improvement is our defence is much better

The reason our defence is better is plain for all to see - we’re playing football in the opposition’s half rather than along our own 18 yard line. Luke Williams tactics aside Grimes showed zero desire to do anything other than receive the ball from his defenders and pass it straight back to them, quite often putting them into trouble and often leading to us conceding goals. He could have carried the ball forward but didn’t have the necessary skills to do so.

He could only use his left foot - the right was only for standing on - and this caused him to need extra time on the ball to get it onto his left by which time he’d be closed down and try to pass backwards to his defenders who were then themselves under pressure.

O’Brien has infinitely better ball skills than Grimes , can use both feet if needed and can find space to carry the ball into relieving any defensive pressure. Not only that his eye for players in space and vision in general is far superior to Grimes’.

LOB could change games, Grimes sadly not. LOB had better relations with his team mates - Grimes left with only two or three of the entire squad coming to see him off. That speaks volumes for me and the difference on the pitch since he’s gone has been night and day.

I cannot see that even pressed to play in the LOB role Grimes would never have had the same impact. He was far too slow in mind and body to have that kind of impact and was the most passive passionless player I think I’ve seen. No aggression or fire in him at all!

You mention assists - Grimes was corner and free kick taker and most of the time couldn’t clear his first man. When he did a few assists would obviously come but nowhere near as many as he should have achieved.

O’Brien might not have the direct assists put his aggressive foward thinking would have provided the ball for those who did.

The final evidence is what we have seen on the pitch, Franco doing the DM and managing to get way further forward than grimes ever did and LOB pushing further on have been a delight to watch and five wins on the bounce resulted. We had a real cohesion as a team and I regret to say Grimes would not have aided that in any way. Dr Winston hit the nail on the head - nobody wanted Grimes on a free - the day Coventry offered £4 million I fell off my chair. Read their forums now and it’s less “we robbed Swansea’s best player” and more “he’s not doing much us he?”.

We robbed them pure and simple. And now we are really seeing the fruits of that positively impact our team’s all round game and much improved performances.

All respect to you but you were in a 40 % minority at time of sale as Grimes evangelicals but now that minority must be 1 to 2 percent at best. People have seen the difference - you have too but for some reason you still maintain that it would have been exactly the same if Matty had stayed. No, it definitely would not!

And as for focussing on the past to be honest I’d rather forget he ever pulled a Swans shirt on. Overly harsh? Yes but that’s my feelings for the player - one that did virtually nothing while he was here and got a sainthood out of it!
 
Grimes has one noticeable habit..when the team concedes he turns his back away from the goal and walks away.

Considering he was our captain and again playing last line of defence at Cov he just shuts off.
 
Mate, I'm with you on stats/analytics having their place in football when they're used correctly. But issues like this and saying we shouldn't buy someone because of their rating on some website are why people think they're pointless.

Lewis O'Brien's 16 games for us were more impressive than a great many of Grimes' 333 games for us. That's pretty clear and obvious even to me, someone who generally liked Grimes.

Also comparing them on goal record for us is a fallacy given O'Brien's low sample size. If we compare whole careers:

Grimes - 27 goals in 484 games (a goal every 17.9 games)
O'Brien - 15 goals in 265 games (a goal every 17.6 games)

No idea if O'Brien has scored any penalties. If not, he's clearly a better goal scorer from open play than Grimes.
10 of Grimes goals were penalties so in reality he has scored 17 in open play in 484 games. O'Brien has Zero penalty goals. So still 15 goals in open play inalmost half of the games.
 
Right then let’s put all this to bed for once and for all. I’ve read your posts before and you’re definitely not a troller but my God you seem to have been totally captivated by the Grimes myth.

You’re actually saying on one hand that you believe that Grimes would have had the same impact on results whilst simultaneously claiming the main improvement has been in defence since Sheehan came in.

One big difference - LOB was more of a box to box player in my eyes (could be wrong but he certainly didn’t seem to be a CDM or holding MF player).

You say the reason for our improvement is our defence is much better

The reason our defence is better is plain for all to see - we’re playing football in the opposition’s half rather than along our own 18 yard line. Luke Williams tactics aside Grimes showed zero desire to do anything other than receive the ball from his defenders and pass it straight back to them, quite often putting them into trouble and often leading to us conceding goals. He could have carried the ball forward but didn’t have the necessary skills to do so.

He could only use his left foot - the right was only for standing on - and this caused him to need extra time on the ball to get it onto his left by which time he’d be closed down and try to pass backwards to his defenders who were then themselves under pressure.

O’Brien has infinitely better ball skills than Grimes , can use both feet if needed and can find space to carry the ball into relieving any defensive pressure. Not only that his eye for players in space and vision in general is far superior to Grimes’.

LOB could change games, Grimes sadly not. LOB had better relations with his team mates - Grimes left with only two or three of the entire squad coming to see him off. That speaks volumes for me and the difference on the pitch since he’s gone has been night and day.

I cannot see that even pressed to play in the LOB role Grimes would never have had the same impact. He was far too slow in mind and body to have that kind of impact and was the most passive passionless player I think I’ve seen. No aggression or fire in him at all!

You mention assists - Grimes was corner and free kick taker and most of the time couldn’t clear his first man. When he did a few assists would obviously come but nowhere near as many as he should have achieved.

O’Brien might not have the direct assists put his aggressive foward thinking would have provided the ball for those who did.

The final evidence is what we have seen on the pitch, Franco doing the DM and managing to get way further forward than grimes ever did and LOB pushing further on have been a delight to watch and five wins on the bounce resulted. We had a real cohesion as a team and I regret to say Grimes would not have aided that in any way. Dr Winston hit the nail on the head - nobody wanted Grimes on a free - the day Coventry offered £4 million I fell off my chair. Read their forums now and it’s less “we robbed Swansea’s best player” and more “he’s not doing much us he?”.

We robbed them pure and simple. And now we are really seeing the fruits of that positively impact our team’s all round game and much improved performances.

All respect to you but you were in a 40 % minority at time of sale as Grimes evangelicals but now that minority must be 1 to 2 percent at best. People have seen the difference - you have too but for some reason you still maintain that it would have been exactly the same if Matty had stayed. No, it definitely would not!

And as for focussing on the past to be honest I’d rather forget he ever pulled a Swans shirt on. Overly harsh? Yes but that’s my feelings for the player - one that did virtually nothing while he was here and got a sainthood out of it!
You make some valid points, but you don't help your argument by making observations that are simply factually incorrect. Grimes was far more progressive in his passing than Fulton or Allen. Twice as many of his passes were forwards as backwards, compared to Fulton, who had equal numbers of backwards and forwards passes. Grimes' accurate long balls were 98th percentile, in other words pretty much best in league, but you wouldn't think so based on the one eyed perspective of most fans.

Direct comparisons on Grimes and LoB are tricky because the former was a DM and the latter an 8. But in terms of Sheehan's game plan LoB was a better fit, which is what I stated earlier. To play high intensity stuff in the opposition half you need all players to be able to contribute, and LoB is stronger than Grimes in that area.

I respect Grimes' contribution while he was here, helping stabilise us as a mid table Championship club, which is an overachievement for a club of our size. That doesn't mean he doesn't have flaws, especially a lack of pace, and average defensive contribution. But I just don't get the need to hate on ex-players who've clearly done their bit for the club. It's a similar story with Martinez. He was the catalyst for all that was good leading to the Premier League. But he's still referred to as Judas in some quarters after all these years. Really?
 
10 of Grimes goals were penalties so in reality he has scored 17 in open play in 484 games. O'Brien has Zero penalty goals. So still 15 goals in open play inalmost half of the games.
Grimes is a 6 LoB an 8. Apples and oranges. Despite that LoB only scored 1 for us, which is the relevant statistic.
 

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